Death_and_Taxes wrote:

Grizz wrote:

Perfect Violation wrote:

Aldebaran wrote:

Perfect Violation wrote:

I'm sorry, but this Mormon=Cult thing is just plain stupid. People need to stop being so ignorant, and start learning to be accepting of other beliefs.


Your are setting up a straw man with your critique of the analysis. If you had read the entire article (which I assume you did), then you know that not any one thing on that list classifies a group as a cult.

Cults exhort a high degree of control over it's members Physical Behavior, access to Information (which may be critical or contrary to the organization), Thoughts & Emotions.

Reading that analysis you will see that the Mormon church DOES INDEED exhibit many cult-like qualities, and thus a good arguement could be made that the LDS church is a cult.

http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/bite.html


Reading the analysis would lead me to believe that all organised religions are a cult, if those are the defining factors. Are you prepared to say that?


With a more Biblical perspective, in 1938 Jan Van Baalens' "The Chaos of Cults" critiqued Theosophy, Mormonism, Christian Science, and Jehovah's Witnesses as 'Cults.' Because they were aberrant in their teachings while claiming to be Christian.

There are two categories of cults, non -Christian and Christian cults. The Christian cult claims to have the truth of Christ and salvation but they deny one or more of the core doctrines of the Christian faith. To simplify an identification of a Christian cult it would be noticeable in several categories. Who is Jesus, the way of salvation, what is your final source of authority and how they relate to others. They want to call themselves Christian without adhering to the tenets of the historic "doctrinal " faith. They change the major core teachings to mean something other than they are defined in the Bible and by the history of the church. The cults do not agree with the historic (Biblical) Christian faith.


A THEOLOGICAL DEFINITION OF "CULT" MUST BE BASED ON A STANDARD OF CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY. USING THE BIBLE'S TEACHING AS A FOCAL POINT. A CULT IS ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP THAT CLAIMS TO BE CHRISTIAN (OR MAY NOT BE) IS DISTINCT AND HAS DOCTRINES AND PRACTICES THAT CONTRADICT THOSE OF THE SCRIPTURES AS INTERPRETED BY ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY. THOSE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD IN HISTORIC CHRISTIANITY .

ORTHODOXY IS REPRESENTED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH, AND IS EXPRESSED IN STATEMENTS SUCH AS THE APOSTLES CREED WHICH ARE DENIED . THEY WILL DENY THE BIBLE AS THE COMPLETE BOOK OF REVELATION AND OUR GUIDE TO KNOWING GOD. THEY WILL DISTORT THE CENTRAL MESSAGE OF THE SCRIPTURES AS CHRIST BEING THE SAVIOR ALONE. THEY WILL DENY HIS DEITY AND DISTORT HIS NATURE. THEY FORM THEIR GROUP AROUND A SINGLE PERSONS INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE, OR CHRIST USUALLY BY A NEW REVELATION. THEY REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THE LARGER BODY AND OPERATE AUTONOMOUSLY. A CULT IS ORGANIZED HERESY. THEY WILL DISTORT ONE OR MORE OF THE FUNDAMENTALS.

" a group of people gathered about a specific persons interpretation of the bible... from a theological view point, the cults contain not only a few major deviations from historic Christianity. They paradoxically, they continue to insist that they are entitled to be classified as Christians."

a group religious in nature which surrounds a leader, or a group which either denies or misinterprets essential biblical doctrines.
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Point out one doctrine that you believe in that is found in the bible that is different than Mormonism and I will show you how you have altered the teachings. second traditional orthodox Christianity cannot even claim authority was given to them by Christ to create their own church's or to interpret the bible Amos 3:7 says that God will do nothing but reveal his secrets unto his servants the prophets. third the only church besides Mormonism that can trace authority is the Roman catholic church. Fourth I am sure that if you sat you down in the same room as someone else in orthodox Christianity, that is in a different sect than you are in, you would find disagreements in your interpretations of the bible which would further discredit that silly statement by Jan Van Baalens. by the way who left him in charge of classifying anyone as a cult. did he get is authority from God or men, or maybe it was the devil.


There can be disagreements on certain doctrines between christian denominations, but not on the core doctrines of saving faith, or in other word's the Gospel(GOOD NEWS)!


"Central doctrines" of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else.

1. The meaning of the expression "Christian faith" is not like a wax nose, which can be twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

2. The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3)

3. Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.

4. Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).

5. Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.

6. Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree.

Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24) and be saved.

7. All Christian denominations " whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant " agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.

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Question: "What is the church?"

Answer: Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church. The word church comes from the Greek word "Ecclesia" which is defined as "an assembly, or called out ones. The root meaning of church is not that of a building, but of people. It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend they usually say Baptist, Methodist, or another denomination. Many times they are referring to a denomination or a building. Read Romans 16:5: "also greet the church that is in their house..." Paul refers to the church in their house, not a church building, but a body of believers.

The church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." The Body of Christ is made up of all believers from the time of Pentecost until the Rapture. The Body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:

(1) The universal church is the church that consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." We see that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ. The true church of God is not any particular church building or denomination. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

(2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2, "Paul, an apostleand all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia." Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches - what we call a local church. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc. is not THE church, as in the universal church " but rather is a local church. The universal church is comprised of those who have trusted in Christ for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.

In summary, the church is not a building, or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the Body of Christ - all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.


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I think the mark of one who is truly spiritual, and confident that they know the truth regarding their spirituality has no cause for defensiveness, name-calling, or any kind of action yielded to such unspiritual emotion. But rather, looking intently at the conversation from all angles, one ought to seek the truth, as truth will always prove itself to be true.

One thing that people I know on both sides of this argument say (if I may be so bold as to speak for them) is that there is such a thing as truth. Not wishy-washy "what's truth to me may not be truth to you", but honest- to-goodness absolute truth.

We could all have such a debate regarding gravity or any of the laws of physics, but the fact remains, the truth of these absolute truths will prove true.

Anyone with overwhelming emotion that gravity does not exist because this is what they have always been told will defeat the search for truth long before it has begun, unless they can approach it with some separation from their emotion and really seek.

So begs the question: what is the truth?

Now, please understand that I don't mean to trivialize the search for spiritual truth and I know that my analogy is simplistic given the means for testing ideas, but my question is: Have you investigated the passages, the ideas put forth?

Is your own idea or belief predicated upon what another has taught you, your own world view, your belief about certain scriptures.... Have you investigated for yourself these beliefs- not only from the proofs alleged by those who have already formed an opinion, but also from other sources?

Does true spirituality deserve anything less?

Are you prepared to come to grips with and adjust your belief system according to what you find?

Do you truly believe that the end of your life will come and you will be able to say, "Well, I was taught....."?

So, I ask again:
What is the truth?

Perfect Violation wrote:

I'm not Mormon. I don't even believe in God. I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy. And is that not what religion should be about, finding happiness and a personal relationship with the god of your choice?


Your statement "I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy" intrigues me. I heard Tom Cruise on TV say that exact same thing in response to a critic of Scientology. The damage Scientology has done to it's member's & their families are legendary, go ahead & google it.

Your statement implies that in spite of the church's cult-like properties it makes people happy and causes no problems.

I know many, personally, who's families have been destroyed. Scientology & the Jehova's Witnesses have an official "disconnect" policy (a policy which instructs members to cut off contact with anyone who speaks ill of their church).

The church does not have such a policy, but it might as well. For example, the church teaches that you can't get to the Celestial Kingdom without being sealed to a worthy spouse. What happens if one partner in a marriage chooses to no longer be Mormon?

The believing spouse's eternal salvation is directly affected, the "eternal family" is now threatened. Can you imagine the sort of phobia-response illicited in a true believer facing that? I personally wonder how many marriages have been destroyed by missionary activity -- where one spouse is converted and the other isn't. Suddenly the non-believing spouse is inadequate & insufficient.

There are many more instances, all the direct result of a cult-like control of member's behavior, information, thoughts, emotions, that can cause serious problems such as these.

In light of recent studies showing Utah to have the highest per-capita rate of depression, a good case could be made it is in large part the result of the Church's overwhelming demands & impossible standards. The social pressure is intense, especially in Utah.

I agree, religion is supposed to make people happy, improve their lives, bring peace & tranquility. Each individual needs to assess if their religion, when it's all added up, gives them that net-benefit. The problem with cult-control is it strips the individual of that freedom, it's a mental trap with the illusion of free-will & choice.

Aldebaran wrote:

Perfect Violation wrote:

I'm not Mormon. I don't even believe in God. I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy. And is that not what religion should be about, finding happiness and a personal relationship with the god of your choice?


Your statement "I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy" intrigues me. I heard Tom Cruise on TV say that exact same thing in response to a critic of Scientology. The damage Scientology has done to it's member's & their families are legendary, go ahead & google it.

Your statement implies that in spite of the church's cult-like properties it makes people happy and causes no problems.

I know many, personally, who's families have been destroyed. Scientology & the Jehova's Witnesses have an official "disconnect" policy (a policy which instructs members to cut off contact with anyone who speaks ill of their church).

The church does not have such a policy, but it might as well. For example, the church teaches that you can't get to the Celestial Kingdom without being sealed to a worthy spouse. What happens if one partner in a marriage chooses to no longer be Mormon?

The believing spouse's eternal salvation is directly affected, the "eternal family" is now threatened. Can you imagine the sort of phobia-response illicited in a true believer facing that? I personally wonder how many marriages have been destroyed by missionary activity -- where one spouse is converted and the other isn't. Suddenly the non-believing spouse is inadequate & insufficient.

There are many more instances, all the direct result of a cult-like control of member's behavior, information, thoughts, emotions, that can cause serious problems such as these.

In light of recent studies showing Utah to have the highest per-capita rate of depression, a good case could be made it is in large part the result of the Church's overwhelming demands & impossible standards. The social pressure is intense, especially in Utah.

I agree, religion is supposed to make people happy, improve their lives, bring peace & tranquility. Each individual needs to assess if their religion, when it's all added up, gives them that net-benefit. The problem with cult-control is it strips the individual of that freedom, it's a mental trap with the illusion of free-will & choice.


*sigh* Why is Tome Cruise always stealing my lines? heh. Anyway, I will look in to the scientology thing.

I understand your opinion on the alleged cult control. I do. But I have always seen LDS families as generally happy ones, save for the few teens I met along the way who didn't want to be LDS but were. I am certainly no expert on the religion, but happiness and togetherness is what I see. Thats what I would not want to degrade.

Any religion can be called a cult IMO. Some dudes wrote a book, called it a bible, claimed it to be holy, and now billions of people follow its words. Cultish? Yes. But as silly as their actions seem to me, I would never want to take away the feeling they get from said actions.

Tolerance, it really isn't that hard.

Perfect Violation wrote:

Aldebaran wrote:

Perfect Violation wrote:

I'm not Mormon. I don't even believe in God. I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy. And is that not what religion should be about, finding happiness and a personal relationship with the god of your choice?


Your statement "I just don't see why someone would want to try to connect a word that is very derogative to something that clearly makes millions of people happy" intrigues me. I heard Tom Cruise on TV say that exact same thing in response to a critic of Scientology. The damage Scientology has done to it's member's & their families are legendary, go ahead & google it.

Your statement implies that in spite of the church's cult-like properties it makes people happy and causes no problems.

I know many, personally, who's families have been destroyed. Scientology & the Jehova's Witnesses have an official "disconnect" policy (a policy which instructs members to cut off contact with anyone who speaks ill of their church).

The church does not have such a policy, but it might as well. For example, the church teaches that you can't get to the Celestial Kingdom without being sealed to a worthy spouse. What happens if one partner in a marriage chooses to no longer be Mormon?

The believing spouse's eternal salvation is directly affected, the "eternal family" is now threatened. Can you imagine the sort of phobia-response illicited in a true believer facing that? I personally wonder how many marriages have been destroyed by missionary activity -- where one spouse is converted and the other isn't. Suddenly the non-believing spouse is inadequate & insufficient.

There are many more instances, all the direct result of a cult-like control of member's behavior, information, thoughts, emotions, that can cause serious problems such as these.

In light of recent studies showing Utah to have the highest per-capita rate of depression, a good case could be made it is in large part the result of the Church's overwhelming demands & impossible standards. The social pressure is intense, especially in Utah.

I agree, religion is supposed to make people happy, improve their lives, bring peace & tranquility. Each individual needs to assess if their religion, when it's all added up, gives them that net-benefit. The problem with cult-control is it strips the individual of that freedom, it's a mental trap with the illusion of free-will & choice.


*sigh* Why is Tome Cruise always stealing my lines? heh. Anyway, I will look in to the scientology thing.

I understand your opinion on the alleged cult control. I do. But I have always seen LDS families as generally happy ones, save for the few teens I met along the way who didn't want to be LDS but were. I am certainly no expert on the religion, but happiness and togetherness is what I see. Thats what I would not want to degrade.

Any religion can be called a cult IMO. Some dudes wrote a book, called it a bible, claimed it to be holy, and now billions of people follow its words. Cultish? Yes. But as silly as their actions seem to me, I would never want to take away the feeling they get from said actions.

Tolerance, it really isn't that hard.


"No" but it seems reality is!!!!!