Documents raise questions about religious influence (1 viewing) (1) Guests
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TOPIC: Documents raise questions about religious influence
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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ThomasK wrote:RogerWilco wrote:
A letter from Albert Einstein to philosopher Eric Gutkind written in 1954 is about to be auctioned. In it, Einstein wrote:
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion/print
Interesting and quite telling of you, Roger. Einstein was definitely an intellectual. His personal life? Doesn't take a genius to see the emptiness he endured. Even Einstein couldn't figure out happiness, or at least what matters most. And if the word God is nothing more than human weakness to you and Albert, that's perfectly fine.Dunno, he got to date Marilyn Monroe.
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Wren (User)
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
[b2. JS said he could translate them because he was a Prophet, seer and revelator.... Joseph also made a document or book he called "Grammar & Alphabet of the Egyptian Language" but in 1966 when this book was leaked out to the public, it in no way substantiated JS's ability to translate ancient Egyptian, it did quite the opposite because the book turned out to be nothing but page after page of nonsensical gibberish, it may have impressed unsophisticated people of the past but it was unable to withstand the scrutiny of experts of today....
This part is not true.
"Really".. ?? Show us how you know this..!!!
Your claim, your burden of proof, but the book you are speaking of was not written in Joseph handwriting, it is the Kirtland papers, ......................
You have to document this assertion, Dubbs, because you of all the forum members have the least personal integrity. You simply can't be trusted to even tell what you think is the truth if it does not serve your agenda.
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
[b]
"LOL" where did you get this from "LOL'
Dubbs did you note how they conveniently left out anything about Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar which is part of the KEP,
Dubbs the KEP is a comprise of 16 documents encompassing a total of about 120 pages, and it contains the controversial Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, and Book of Abraham manuscript documents,
It sounds like someone is trying to deceive us again Dubbs, Come on show where you got that from "LOL"
You know the KEP are not written in Joseph hand don't you bigdummy? You didn't know this did you? Do some due diligence POS and learn about the whole story before spouting nonsense BS from anti's, I will call your fatass on it everytime.
"LOL" again you are wrong Dubbs "LOL" you don't even know your own churches history "LOL"
The Kirtland Egyptian Papers (KEP) are a collection of documents written by early Mormon leaders including Joseph Smith, Jr., Oliver Cowdery, W.W. Phelps, Warren Parish, Willard Richards, and Frederick G. Williams, during the the Kirtland period of early Mormonism... "LOL"
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Last Edit: 2008/05/13 17:13 By Just Reading.
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Dubbs (User)
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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Just Reading wrote:Dubbs wrote:
Big dummy, is this more of what you don't really believe just to iritate ole dubs, or do you really believe it? As you said while I was gone you say things just to iritate me, which would make you a fake here and different in real life, which you always like to claim your the same. Busted 
Dubbs are you trying to change the subject because you know you are wrong, well it won't work..!! "LOL"Wrong? You obvioulsy didn't read my descriptions that NON LDS people wrote about the description of what the scrolls looked like that Joseph Translated from. Why doesn't that surprise me you haven't read ALL the evidence, not just copy and pasted from some Anti site, that by the way, you are plagerizing from.
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Isn't it much better since the ignore came down? Life is so much better not having to respond to the three smarmy sisters of negativity, ahhh, it's like a load has been lifted, they never made an intelligent post anyway, so what are we missing? NOTHING!
My ignore list... Betz, Kitkat, and the blonde. They have nothing of substance to say anyway, but just like to add smarmy comments to the conversations, so why bother with the the constant smariness?
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Wren (User)
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:
Here's some due diligence for you to do bigdumbass. Read and comprehend if you can.
Some people feel that the Kirtland papers "prove" that Joseph's translation was a fraud. The Kirtland Egyptian Papers are a group of documents written by Warren Parrish, Oliver Cowdery, and William W. Phelps. Two documents in the set have Joseph's handwriting on them (but here there is no attempt at translating Egyptian into English). Some of the Kirtland papers contain the text of the published Book of Abraham with a column of Egyptian characters from the Sensen scroll on the left-hand side of the pages. The critics argue that these papers were working documents for the translation of the Book of Abraham, and that Joseph got the translation wrong. (The assumption seems to be made that these papers reflect the work of Joseph Smith, even though most were not written by him, since the men who wrote them served as scribes to Joseph at various times.) If these papers were used to do the translation, it could be construed as powerful evidence in favor of the critics, for the characters in the margin do come from the Book of Breathings, not from some other missing scroll, and the "translation" is obviously incorrect because we have many lines of text for single characters - and what kind of translation is that?
I think that the argument becomes weaker or even irrelevant in light of important evidence. First of all, I feel that the evidence discussed above shows that the Sensen scroll was NOT what Joseph Smith used to produce the translation of the Book of Abraham (though this can be debated). Apart from that issue, an examination of the Kirtland papers shows that they were not Joseph's tools in producing the Book of Abraham. For example, on March 9, 1842, as the Book of Abraham text was being prepared for publication, Joseph Smith made marks for revisions and corrections on his Book of Abraham manuscript (HC 4:518, 543-48). I presume that many other such marks were made during the translation and preparation of the text prior to March 9. None of the Book of Abraham manuscripts in the Kirtland Papers show such editorial marks [Gee, 1995b, p. 226], making it seem unlikely that any of the Kirtland Papers could have been Joseph's working papers for the translation.
Larson shows 4 pages of the papers (Book of Abraham manuscript 1) to suggest that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the characters on the left, but Gee [Gee, 1992a, p. 113] points out that these pages are mostly in the handwriting of Warren Parrish (with a half page at the beginning by W. W. Phelps). More importantly, the Egyptian characters in the margins were obviously added AFTER the English text had been written down. Parrish's English text flows smoothly and continuously, as if written in one steady stream copied from an original document, while the characters at the side get cramped together as if someone were trying to fit them into space that had already been constrained by the English text. Parrish's English text shows no sign of being produced as a translation from material to the left. If the Egyptian had been written first, the English text would have been unevenly spaced to adjust to the spacing of the characters (and probably would have had numerous additions, corrections, etc.). It appears that some of Joseph's associates were examining relationships between Egyptian characters in the Book of Breathings and the Book of Abraham text - after the translation of that first part of the book had been completed.
Readers can see for themselves the evidence that the characters in the margins of the Book of Abraham manuscripts were added after the English text was already there. Six detailed photos are provided by John Gee in A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri [Gee, 2000, p. 22]. These high-quality photographs "show that the characters (1) were written in different ink than the English text ..., (2) do not line up with the English text ..., and (3) run over the margins ... and sometimes the English text.... This indicates that the Egyptian characters were added after the English text was written, perhaps to decorate the beginnings of paragraphs, although the reason for their inclusion was never explicitly stated" [Gee, 2000, p. 22].
In addition, the issue of length again becomes relevant. We know that Joseph had completed a translation of much more material than we now have in the Book of Abraham - and none of that additional material is found in the Kirtland papers. For example, Anson Call's Manuscript Journal (Summer, 1838; cited by Gee, 1992a, p. 111; also cited by Peterson, 1995, p. 140) records an incident in which Joseph and others spent an evening reading aloud from the translated Book of Abraham manuscript. They read on for two solid hours, apparently without finishing, while the small text now published requires only 30 minutes to read aloud. In addition, Joseph also noted that his translation provided extensive information on the "formation of the planetary system" and the system of astronomy [D.C. Jesse, 1984, pp. 60 and 105] - as the text of Abraham says is to be included later in the book (Abraham 1:31). The creation story and Facsimile 2 fall far short of this description. The Kirtland papers provide nothing on astronomical information.
Joseph had stated that he planned to publish more of the translation later. The crisis in Nauvoo and Joseph's martyrdom apparently disrupted these plans. (The scrolls were subsequently lost or destroyed, as far as we know, except for the fragments later found in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art.) But it is clear that Joseph had produced more than just the brief published text, yet that is all of the translation that we find in the Kirtland Papers.
Provide the source from which you cut and pasted this, Dubbs, because your lack of personal integrity prevents anyone from accepting it on your word alone.
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Wren (User)
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Re:Documents raise questions about religious influ 3 Months, 3 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:
The standard argument of the critics is that Joseph produced the Book of Abraham from a few characters on the Sensen scroll...To call the Book of Abraham a translation of the few glyphs in the margins hardly makes sense... If Joseph had indeed claimed to be translating entire paragraphs of complex English text from single Egyptian characters ("shorthand" hieratic script, not elaborate glyphs), his associates who worked with him during the days of translation should have been suspicious. One of the scribes assisting in the work, Warren Parrish, did later turn against Joseph and the Church. But mantioned nothing of it.
Provide the source for the material above, Dubbs. It means nothing if you don't.
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