Work and business call me away for several days, and I return to find a semblance of peace on this thread. Small miracles do happen. I pray we all find peace in the expression of our values in life, whether they are rooted in religion or in ethics.

Could it have been your influence?

It may well have been her influence. She brings a reasoned calmness here untouched by personality picques.

Hey Dubss

This guy says he lives on/by the beach in California and that he looks just like Brad Pitt is this you???

Jaye wrote:
Dubss wrote:
Jaye wrote:
bearyb wrote:
Jaye wrote:


It is not so much my claims that should be intriguing here...but Joseph's claims of what the Lord told him...the warnings of what would happen should he not repent of his disobedience...and should he continue to follow after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires.

And the promise that the Lord gave him, of being protected by the Lord Himself, should he repent and remain obedient to the commandments and instructions of the Lord.

And it is very possible, that if Joseph's repentance HAD been sincere, AND continuous, he would not have done many of the things which ultimately led to several imprisonments, concluding with his final imprisonment and murder at the hands of the mob...and he would have probably lived a very long and fruitful life...and might have died of old age in his bed, surrounded by his children and grandchildren.

As far as Christ's 12 Apostles...it is true that 10 of them are said to have died martyrs deaths...either by Biblical account, or traditional BELIEFS.

But Judas committed suicide...and John the Beloved is thought to have died a natural death.

Why were these men murdered? The actions of men who teach revolutionary new ideas do seem to bring about certain consequences...don't you think?

Yes, they often do. So why does the way Joseph died have to have anything to do with any "sin" he may have committed?

While we're at it, what did Christ do to deserve being put on trial and condemned to crucifixion?

To put it simply...certain actions have consequences. Certain sins have just punishments.

And certain crimes carry the possible consequence of death. Did Joseph Smith DESERVE to die for his sins, and his crimes?

No.


Why not? Are we not taught that a Prophet will not be allowed to lead us astray? That he will be taken before he can allow that?

Is this not exactly what you believe happened to Joseph?

From another point of reference...if you believe what the scripture says about it...yes. I would say that supposedly God would take a prophet BEFORE he could lead any astray.

But...that would also set the whole concept of free will and free agency at naught...would it not?

That would not necessarily affect anyone's agency. For example, at some point God determined (or likely they themselves did) that those who followed Satan while still in the pre-existence had reached a "point of no return." In other words, they were beyond any kind of redemption and ability to seek forgiveness. They were then forever denied the chance of being born to a mortal existence and to rightfully occupy a physical body.

Consider also the story of Laban, who had several chances to provide the brass plates to Nephi and his brethren. Because he didn't (or wouldn't), he lost his life.

It is up to God to determine whether or if there is any chance that someone might still be obedient to His commandments. Accordingly, there must also be a point at which such a determination is made. I doubt whether any of us are qualified to be able to discern such a thing about anyone at all.

Many "what if" questions often arise when someone is taken from this life against their will through an act of violence, accident, or disease. It is enough for me that He has said that His ways and plans are never frustrated, even though man's are.

Jaye wrote:
Dubss wrote:

I get my beliefs from the four standard works, consisting of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, I also get my beliefs from the current Prophets.

Now, was that so hard?

Pretty much what I expected. You've got it all outlined for you very neatly in ink...penned by the hands of men...and in the words of other men.

No need to think for yourself.

Jaye, how do you regard the passage in Proverbs 3:5, 6?

5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
6 "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."