Life Rocks wrote:
JLD wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.

So you're really really really angry that the Church didn't allow you to go inside the temple at your daughters Sealing because you think the Church is a bunch of hooey. I got that.

So if one of your other 8 children, that you raised LDS, decides to join the Church of Satan and invites you to attend their wedding where you actually get to go inside. And they sacrifice an animal and drink its blood. You would be very very happy. Because witnessing that is very very important to you. I get it.

You're a great dad.

You'd think he'd be happy they are actually doing something he couldn't, live up to their covenants and beliefs, without wavering to the whims of the world. His poor kids, there Dad hates the thing he taught them was truth.


We see certainly see things differently. If I were to talk about a Catholic Priest misusing young children, we could agree on that. It's wrong.
If we talk about the abuses in the FLDS faith, we probably will agree on that. That's wrong too!

But if we talk about something the LDS Church does that offends tens of thousands of people in something so basic as marriage being a family event...I guess that's to hard to address since it would mean looking at yourself. I shake my head in disgust. Shame on all of you.

I see this as thinking for myself for a change and taking a stand for what's right, something people who are obsessed with "following the rules" can't do.

It seems you're more concerned with "membership" and "being a good Mormon" rather than recognizing that what the Church is doing is wrong. And even if you could see it, because you've been so conditioned to "follow the brethren" you can't stand up for yourself. And by so doing, that makes you an accomplice.

Shame on us? For what, being reasonable? Honestly, not everyone is slamming on you, there are just as many posts offering advice, and not everyone cares about LDS membership standing...just because someone disagrees with your opinion on the issue doesn't make them LDS.

If you want to talk about church leaders misusing young children or other such abuses, I'm all for nodding my head in agreement. But I won't say that being excluded from a religious ceremony is even remotely the same thing.

I agree concerning religions. It's their right to believe and practice what they want...to a limit. Given all the religious organizations around the world, it's really quite amazing at what things they can get people to do in the name of "honoring God".

My regret now is that I can see what's occurring and that I didn't think for myself all these years. I followed the Church naively, blindly believing that this was true. Now I can see the extent of control the Church (not just the LDS Church)has on it's members and my children.

I was trying to teach my children to think for themselves and to notice that wrong can occur even in the Church at all levels. And just because someone "in authority" says something is true doesn't make it right.

We've become so numbed to spiritual things.
We've come to think religion = spirituality. It's not so.

I used to watch people pray for "those who weren't at Church" and make no effort at all to visit them.

Or to pray for peace and safety...all the time. If this life is to prepare to meet God shouldn't we be praying for all the experiences that we need to have?

Or sitting week and after week (in exactly the same place) listening to lessons over and over and thinking that was spirituality?

To suggest that a physical building (ie a temple) has "the spirit" and has more importance than the people seems like what the Catholics do with their cathedrals. Seems to me that the Temples have become our new sacred cows, the new golden idols of worship.

Because you're in it, you're like a fish in water that can't see the water it's in. The Church tells you that any perspective outside the "safety" of the faith is of the devil and wrong. I'd wonder if one year the Priesthood manual didn't come with preprinted answers what the discussion would be.

Someone comes with an opinion different than yours and the other members gang up on him immediately telling him his opinion is wrong.

Couldn't be that something this guy has to say is valid. We're right you say. It's our right to have a belief that offends others. Apparently it is.

Please, if you would, tell me specifically what's so reasonable and caring and loving about excluding family members from the experience of attending the wedding of their children?

It's true. I'm angry for the moment. I'm feeling hurt. I didn't have a close family as a child. This isn't how I expected this occasion would turn out. I thought that close families did things together. If I had been an evil, or nasty and mistreated them, I'd agree...leave the bum out.

I'll get over this with time.

But I've been and am a good dad. The night before the wedding, my daughter and I stopped at a grocery store to get her some vitamins to stave of a cold she felt was coming on. We came out of the store and I noticed her headlight on her car was out. So there in the cold and snow, and in the dark I fiddled around to replace the bulb. That was my moment with my daughter.

Then showing up at the Temple the next day.

All the while you're believing I'm wrong, what you might want to think about too is what happened to your compassion as a human being when you follow a practice that disappoints and hurts so many and you feel good about it?

From reading your post I think there is more than just this one instance that is really fueling your anger, you seem to despise many things pertaining to organized religion, and you despise anyone that actually cares about their religious beliefs. I won't go so far to say you are a bad father in any way, but since you keep bringing up what a great parent you are have you thought for a moment what this must be doing to your kids? Everything you have said has been about you, and what religions are doing to you and people in your shoes. Maybe you should instead look at this from the perspective of your daughter. Just a thought.

Life Rocks wrote:
I'm not saying this is on the same level of child abuse. My point was simply that it's easier to notice the faults or flaws of other religious groups other than our own.

That's one of my concerns about organized religion. It separates us as human beings. Mormons come across as thinking of themselves as superior and chosen and arrogant. How else can you think of yourself when you're reminded so often that you have the truth.

It would be different if I didn't have 30 years of experience in the Church. I know how you think. I know what you feel. I know what your doctrine is. And that's why I said before, I can't argue this from a religious perspective. You believe what you believe.

But as a human being...as a father...I'm telling you what's occurring.

You and the Church will do whatever they want with that information. Next time you go to a Temple wedding...just notice what's going around you. Notice that it's your first inclination to tell this guy, he's wrong and delusional. Couldn't be that he has a valid concern that needs addressing.

If the idea of a Temple recommend was instituted after polygamy was adopted and the Church no longer practices it what would it hurt to allow all family members to attend the weddings of it's children?

You must have been one of those superior and arrogant Mormons finding fault with everyone. Now you're a superior and arrogant ExMormon finding fault with everyone.

You haven't changed a bit.

Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
I agree with your post except to point out that the "unworthy" are not invited, it's more that we have qualifications to enter, anybody can go through the process to be qualified, it's not a matter of being unworthy in my mind.

Really? Then why did you say this earlier?

Dubbs wrote:
So.... your a member of the church, why not get yourself worthy to get to the temple would be a logical question.

Come on, are you really this dense? I'm talking about non members in one sense, and a member in another, of couse members have made covenants and therefore are asked if they are honoring those covenants to enter the temple, non members have not made those covenants therefore they are not asked about their worthiness, we are not saying one way or the other their worthiness, because they have not made the covenants. You were a member?

Life Rocks wrote:
[b
We've become so numbed to spiritual things.
We've come to think religion = spirituality. It's not so.

I used to watch people pray for "those who weren't at Church" and make no effort at all to visit them.

Or to pray for peace and safety...all the time. If this life is to prepare to meet God shouldn't we be praying for all the experiences that we need to have?
?

You really need to get over your own self rightous in reverse attitude towards people just trying to do good, by their own meaning and understanding, your ripping members of a faith for praying now? How do you know they have NEVER gone and vistited or called someone that they pray for? And even if they never have, at least they are praying for them, which we believe can be a powerful tool, you don't, but don't rip them for their beliefs and trying to do good. Geez dude, seriously, you need help.

Life Rocks wrote:

It would be different if I didn't have 30 years of experience in the Church. I know how you think. I know what you feel. ?

If that's true, I would think you would respect and honor your childrens beliefs and decisions, instead of ripping the faith and practice publically. I'm sorry, I'm not buying that you understand, you don't.

Life Rocks wrote:

If the idea of a Temple recommend was instituted after polygamy was adopted and the Church no longer practices it what would it hurt to allow all family members to attend the weddings of it's children?

This is another example that you don't really understand LDS doctrine, as we believe Temples have been around since the days of Adam and Eve in some form, as has polygamy in Old Testement times. That you say "the church" adopted practices in Josephs day shows you really don't have a grasp of LDS beleifs in full. Which I find typical of those who leave the faith, they study the anti side more than they do their own faith. Your more proof.