Dubbs wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
Let me say, I certainly appreciate all the comments made here...pro or con...whether you agree with me or not...you took some time out of your valuable lives to respond.

I'm really going to take to heart the suggestions you've made here. I think I got out of this what I came for.

I don't have the same belief about the Church as I did. I guess it's because I see all of us as human beings first, as children of God then after that whatever religion you want to subscribe to.
I find religious belief as a source of problems in the world when we have so much more in common as human beings.

The ritual exists for the people. Without the people all religious organizations cease to exist. We create ritual to add meaning to our lives. I find fault with the Church for having this kind of practice at all. It seems so scathingly cruel.

I have a tough time imagining someone you respect called "God the Father" allowing such an event to take place wouldn't include everyone. It's a family event.

The thought occurs to me...Have any of you actually been to a non LDS wedding? Perhaps I shouldn't assume anything here.

And worse yet, the members have become so accustomed to not challenging anything the Church leaders teach, they willing accept it.

I support an organization where we go to Mexico regularly to build homes for the homeless. (you want a wildly amazing life changing experience check out www.corazon.org--crazy fun!)I took all of my children many times so they could see what service looked like and actually participate in it.

I had a belief about what marriage is and had some expectations about how things would be. When I left the Church, I hadn't thought about what was coming down the pike. I've never been to another LDS wedding ceremony other than my own.

I was told as the father of my home that I held some important place. I saw all of these people who had been my friends, including my wife and children leave me behind. I've never felt so much rejection in my life. I wonder how you feel about going to a wedding ceremony that a parent has been excluded from going to?

When you pass the mother on your way into the temple, how do you feel about that?

I guess "if God has set certain tasks to achieve exaltation" and it brings up this kind of conflict where you have to choose between a religious ceremony and your loved ones who have done nothing wrong...I'd be wondering if what I was doing really was "a task to achieve exaltation." My opinion.

Some have asked if I had talked to my daughters about this. I was disappointed with my wife and my kids too. My whole life I've always put them first. Because I had a really lousy home life, I went to great lengths to do much more. I rearranged my life to be an attentive, available, involved dad. What this experience tells me is that no matter what you say or do for your wife or kids matters. There's nothing in my life or world that I value that I would have picked my over my kids (LDS Church included).

I'm wondering what all of you will do if and when the Church decides on some new doctrine that you find as difficult to live as polygamy was for the early Saints?

As for ring ceremonies or second services...they sort of did something like that. Sure made me feel special. makes me wonder who made up the "one year waiting rule"?

There's no question, sometimes in life you make some choices and there are a lot of "unintended consequences" that follow that you can't see at the time you make the original choice. I made some choices in my life early on about believing the "brethren" that I'm paying a price for.

All of your lives matter.
It'll be over before we know it.
Make the most of the time you have here on this planet.
Honour your parents.
Make a difference.
Do something great and wonderful with your lives.

Thanks again for your comments.

Again, after numerous people have asked, not sure why your avoiding it, have you asked your kids about their decision? Where's your wife at with the church and your decision?

I just don't think we are getting the WHOLE story here, I've known kids to do ring ceremony's, a seperate wedding for non members, your kids did nothing, why is that?
Read, Dubs. READ!! See the bolded? You didn't even need to ask what you did.

By the way, as active as you "claim" to be, you don't know that the Church frowns on second ceremonies?

Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Girl Raised in the South wrote:
[Jaye, your posts are usually very thoughtful. However, you said something that bothers me, and please correct me if I misinterpreted your words. So, you believe in scripture/doctrine if it appeals to you, and then disregard the rest without thought about being accountable for that disregard? Are you a member of the church in good standing? '


Don't try to figure out Jaye, His beliefs are so full of contradiction it's impossible. He says he believes in the BofM, but then says things were inserted by Joseph for his own purposes, He claims to not believe in all of the D&C, yet follows the word of wisdom, except he drinks actual alchoholic wine for his sacrament, I could go on, but he's one of the fanatical outliers every church has.

Would you keep on the subject instead of attacking Jaye.

Oh, and speaking of the subject, where is the proof I asked you for on your claims about the Buddhist, Sihk, Jewish, and Hindu weddings?

Just from friends I've talked to over the years.

There you go . . . more lies.

Missionaries go all over the world, so it makes sense I'd have friends who have taught those faiths before, and know their beliefs. But believe what you like, makes no difference to me.

Makes me laugh that I give you links to the actual wedding ceremony details, yet you still won't admit you're wrong.

By the way, we're heading to LA in a couple of weeks to a Jewish wedding, in a Jewish temple. Imagine that!

Must not be orthodox, ask them if there's sect of the jewish faith that don't let non Jews in the temple, get back to me.

LifeRocks writes -"The thought occurs to me...Have any of you actually been to a non LDS wedding? Perhaps I shouldn't assume anything here."


Yes, my daughter was not married in the temple.


LifeRocks - "I was told as the father of my home that I held some important place. I saw all of these people who had been my friends, including my wife and children leave me behind. I've never felt so much rejection in my life. I wonder how you feel about going to a wedding ceremony that a parent has been excluded from going to?"


From what you said above, LifeRocks, your wife and children left you behind. Is that figuratively or literally? That's rough and heartbreaking, but were you keeping up with them spiritually? Were you hindering their spiritual growth and they needed to leave?



LifeRocks - "Some have asked if I had talked to my daughters about this. I was disappointed with my wife and my kids too. My whole life I've always put them first. Because I had a really lousy home life, I went to great lengths to do much more. I rearranged my life to be an attentive, available, involved dad. What this experience tells me is that no matter what you say or do for your wife or kids matters. There's nothing in my life or world that I value that I would have picked my over my kids (LDS Church included)."



Here, finally, LifeRocks, is what this is really about. . .Your wife and children didn't meet your expectations ("I was disappointed with my wife and children", so you cut them off by denouncing all they hold dear (the Church and the gospel). And again, "I rearranged my life to be an attentive, available, involved dad." In other words, because you put YOURSELF first, that's right, yourself first. . .you think your children (and probably your wife) OWE you. Owe you what? Is the love you give your family conditional? I'm sure you were a good dad and husband in your mind, but your family has apparently seen through "your good works" and now probably feel very unloved by you, and probably feel guilty because they could never please you.

My dad did the same thing to us. He loved us as long as we did what he demanded, made us feel lower than low if we disappointed him. . .all this in the name of being a good dad. My sister "divorced" herself from Dad because she was tired of his manipulations. Mom divorced Dad because she got smart, and I tried to please my Dad until the day he died. I don't feel sorry for myself because Dad did teach me a few things. . .Love for family should be UNconditional, and Dad was really never disappointed in us, just in himself. Because he was hurting, he wanted us to hurt, too.

(Sorry about the emoticon above. I couldn't make it go away.)

Try entering a Jewish synagogue/temple for services or a wedding and not wear a yarmukle. (Or up to the Western Wall for that matter) Or go into a Mosque or Hindu temple with your shoes on. Should we be like Life Rocks and whine that those groups should change their rules because we insist on going bare-headed or with shoes?

In the case of LDS Temples, God sets the standards. Like fathers always say: my house, my rules.

Arthur, with all due respect, this wasn't a good comparison. You don't have to become a Jew to attend a wedding as is the case with the Mormons. What you're saying is the equivalent.

I was at a friends Bar Mitzvah for their son. Yes, so they give you a yarmulke, and out of respect you wear it and get to share the experience and their joy. It's an honour to be invited.

In Thailand, at the Hindu or Buddhist temple...you take off your shoes and get to participate. So what?

But not the case of LDS Temples...nothing short of joining the Church, and jumping through the arbitrary hoops that keep changing permits entry to participate in my children's weddings. I got it.

Anytime you cause someone emotional pain to get your way for benefit is extortion.

According to Wikipedia,

Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense, which occurs when a person either unlawfully obtains money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution through coercion or intimidation or threatens a person, entity, or institution with physical or reputational harm unless he is paid money or property.

Also, just because I'm passionate about my position, angry with the LDS Church that it unnecessarily perpetrates this miserable situation on the families both LDS and non-LDS (it occurs to me that I'm arguing for your family members too)does not constitute whining.

Further, it troubles me that those in the Church that can see this unfortunate circumstance haven't or won't challenge the Church hierarchy to demand some change in this policy to include everyone which is what marriage is about.

"They allowed us"?

"Forcing them to wait a year"...

There sure doesn't seem like there's much freedom to choose for yourself. And all the while "the people" were having their scaled down ring ceremony, they were afraid someone would tell on them. Oh brother?

Why do the members allow this? How did the Church ever get to the point where they feel they have to control so much about someone's personal life?

I remember one of the local leaders in So California used to teach prospective marriage firesides to the young adults. He used to teach that a "good" latter-day saint couple... one that was wanting to stay close to the Lord...would refrain from engaging in "marital relations" on Sunday. I hadn't seen this guys son for 20 years and one of the first topics that came up were the hokie firesides his father used to give.

Stand up for yourselves.

Having to have permission from the Church to marry...but only if you have a temple recommend. Yikes.