Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
I agree with your post except to point out that the "unworthy" are not invited, it's more that we have qualifications to enter, anybody can go through the process to be qualified, it's not a matter of being unworthy in my mind.

Really? Then why did you say this earlier?

Dubbs wrote:
So.... your a member of the church, why not get yourself worthy to get to the temple would be a logical question.

Come on, are you really this dense? I'm talking about non members in one sense, and a member in another, of couse members have made covenants and therefore are asked if they are honoring those covenants to enter the temple, non members have not made those covenants therefore they are not asked about their worthiness, we are not saying one way or the other their worthiness, because they have not made the covenants. You were a member?

I asked a legitimate question and pointed out one of your many contradictions, so, of course, you have to attack me. Pitiful. You know and I know there are a list of requirements to be worthy to enter the temple and it covers every single person. A non-member is NOT worthy to enter the temple starting at the simple reason they are not members.

Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
I agree with your post except to point out that the "unworthy" are not invited, it's more that we have qualifications to enter, anybody can go through the process to be qualified, it's not a matter of being unworthy in my mind.

Really? Then why did you say this earlier?

Dubbs wrote:
So.... your a member of the church, why not get yourself worthy to get to the temple would be a logical question.

Come on, are you really this dense? I'm talking about non members in one sense, and a member in another, of couse members have made covenants and therefore are asked if they are honoring those covenants to enter the temple, non members have not made those covenants therefore they are not asked about their worthiness, we are not saying one way or the other their worthiness, because they have not made the covenants. You were a member?

I asked a legitimate question and pointed out one of your many contradictions, so, of course, you have to attack me. Pitiful. You know and I know there are a list of requirements to be worthy to enter the temple and it covers every single person. A non-member is NOT worthy to enter the temple starting at the simple reason they are not members.
Pathetic, isn't he?

Dubbs wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
[b
We've become so numbed to spiritual things.
We've come to think religion = spirituality. It's not so.

I used to watch people pray for "those who weren't at Church" and make no effort at all to visit them.

Or to pray for peace and safety...all the time. If this life is to prepare to meet God shouldn't we be praying for all the experiences that we need to have?
?

You really need to get over your own self rightous in reverse attitude towards people just trying to do good, by their own meaning and understanding, your ripping members of a faith for praying now? How do you know they have NEVER gone and vistited or called someone that they pray for? And even if they never have, at least they are praying for them, which we believe can be a powerful tool, you don't, but don't rip them for their beliefs and trying to do good. Geez dude, seriously, you need help.
Self-righteous? LOL.. Coming from you, that's just too much!

JLD wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
JLD wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.

So you're really really really angry that the Church didn't allow you to go inside the temple at your daughters Sealing because you think the Church is a bunch of hooey. I got that.

So if one of your other 8 children, that you raised LDS, decides to join the Church of Satan and invites you to attend their wedding where you actually get to go inside. And they sacrifice an animal and drink its blood. You would be very very happy. Because witnessing that is very very important to you. I get it.

You're a great dad.

You'd think he'd be happy they are actually doing something he couldn't, live up to their covenants and beliefs, without wavering to the whims of the world. His poor kids, there Dad hates the thing he taught them was truth.


We see certainly see things differently. If I were to talk about a Catholic Priest misusing young children, we could agree on that. It's wrong.
If we talk about the abuses in the FLDS faith, we probably will agree on that. That's wrong too!

But if we talk about something the LDS Church does that offends tens of thousands of people in something so basic as marriage being a family event...I guess that's to hard to address since it would mean looking at yourself. I shake my head in disgust. Shame on all of you.

I see this as thinking for myself for a change and taking a stand for what's right, something people who are obsessed with "following the rules" can't do.

It seems you're more concerned with "membership" and "being a good Mormon" rather than recognizing that what the Church is doing is wrong. And even if you could see it, because you've been so conditioned to "follow the brethren" you can't stand up for yourself. And by so doing, that makes you an accomplice.

Shame on us? For what, being reasonable? Honestly, not everyone is slamming on you, there are just as many posts offering advice, and not everyone cares about LDS membership standing...just because someone disagrees with your opinion on the issue doesn't make them LDS.

If you want to talk about church leaders misusing young children or other such abuses, I'm all for nodding my head in agreement. But I won't say that being excluded from a religious ceremony is even remotely the same thing.

I agree concerning religions. It's their right to believe and practice what they want...to a limit. Given all the religious organizations around the world, it's really quite amazing at what things they can get people to do in the name of "honoring God".

My regret now is that I can see what's occurring and that I didn't think for myself all these years. I followed the Church naively, blindly believing that this was true. Now I can see the extent of control the Church (not just the LDS Church)has on it's members and my children.

I was trying to teach my children to think for themselves and to notice that wrong can occur even in the Church at all levels. And just because someone "in authority" says something is true doesn't make it right.

We've become so numbed to spiritual things.
We've come to think religion = spirituality. It's not so.

I used to watch people pray for "those who weren't at Church" and make no effort at all to visit them.

Or to pray for peace and safety...all the time. If this life is to prepare to meet God shouldn't we be praying for all the experiences that we need to have?

Or sitting week and after week (in exactly the same place) listening to lessons over and over and thinking that was spirituality?

To suggest that a physical building (ie a temple) has "the spirit" and has more importance than the people seems like what the Catholics do with their cathedrals. Seems to me that the Temples have become our new sacred cows, the new golden idols of worship.

Because you're in it, you're like a fish in water that can't see the water it's in. The Church tells you that any perspective outside the "safety" of the faith is of the devil and wrong. I'd wonder if one year the Priesthood manual didn't come with preprinted answers what the discussion would be.

Someone comes with an opinion different than yours and the other members gang up on him immediately telling him his opinion is wrong.

Couldn't be that something this guy has to say is valid. We're right you say. It's our right to have a belief that offends others. Apparently it is.

Please, if you would, tell me specifically what's so reasonable and caring and loving about excluding family members from the experience of attending the wedding of their children?

It's true. I'm angry for the moment. I'm feeling hurt. I didn't have a close family as a child. This isn't how I expected this occasion would turn out. I thought that close families did things together. If I had been an evil, or nasty and mistreated them, I'd agree...leave the bum out.

I'll get over this with time.

But I've been and am a good dad. The night before the wedding, my daughter and I stopped at a grocery store to get her some vitamins to stave of a cold she felt was coming on. We came out of the store and I noticed her headlight on her car was out. So there in the cold and snow, and in the dark I fiddled around to replace the bulb. That was my moment with my daughter.

Then showing up at the Temple the next day.

All the while you're believing I'm wrong, what you might want to think about too is what happened to your compassion as a human being when you follow a practice that disappoints and hurts so many and you feel good about it?

From reading your post I think there is more than just this one instance that is really fueling your anger, you seem to despise many things pertaining to organized religion, and you despise anyone that actually cares about their religious beliefs. I won't go so far to say you are a bad father in any way, but since you keep bringing up what a great parent you are have you thought for a moment what this must be doing to your kids? Everything you have said has been about you, and what religions are doing to you and people in your shoes. Maybe you should instead look at this from the perspective of your daughter. Just a thought.

Must be the nature of posting our opinions. Probably like sending mail back and forth. I've tried to be respectful. I'm a dad arguing for the right as a father to participate in an important life event of my children. A religious organization has pushed me out of the way, it's members are actually defending the practice and I find that pretty despicable. Rather than understanding my frustration and having any compassion I'm being castigated as being "self righteous", "needing help" and "delusional". I make any comment that's contrary to anything you've been taught and I'm labeled anti and that leaving the Church couldn't possibly be an intelligent and respected choice.

I'm delusional yet it's the Church that teaches you your underwear will protect you.

I'm out of touch and Utah has the highest use of anti-depression medication in the country.

I'm needing help and Utah has one of the highest rates of bankruptcy in the country.

Things that make you go hmmmm?

You're right, this isn't the forum to take this concern.

Life Rocks wrote:
JLD wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
JLD wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.

So you're really really really angry that the Church didn't allow you to go inside the temple at your daughters Sealing because you think the Church is a bunch of hooey. I got that.

So if one of your other 8 children, that you raised LDS, decides to join the Church of Satan and invites you to attend their wedding where you actually get to go inside. And they sacrifice an animal and drink its blood. You would be very very happy. Because witnessing that is very very important to you. I get it.

You're a great dad.

You'd think he'd be happy they are actually doing something he couldn't, live up to their covenants and beliefs, without wavering to the whims of the world. His poor kids, there Dad hates the thing he taught them was truth.


We see certainly see things differently. If I were to talk about a Catholic Priest misusing young children, we could agree on that. It's wrong.
If we talk about the abuses in the FLDS faith, we probably will agree on that. That's wrong too!

But if we talk about something the LDS Church does that offends tens of thousands of people in something so basic as marriage being a family event...I guess that's to hard to address since it would mean looking at yourself. I shake my head in disgust. Shame on all of you.

I see this as thinking for myself for a change and taking a stand for what's right, something people who are obsessed with "following the rules" can't do.

It seems you're more concerned with "membership" and "being a good Mormon" rather than recognizing that what the Church is doing is wrong. And even if you could see it, because you've been so conditioned to "follow the brethren" you can't stand up for yourself. And by so doing, that makes you an accomplice.

Shame on us? For what, being reasonable? Honestly, not everyone is slamming on you, there are just as many posts offering advice, and not everyone cares about LDS membership standing...just because someone disagrees with your opinion on the issue doesn't make them LDS.

If you want to talk about church leaders misusing young children or other such abuses, I'm all for nodding my head in agreement. But I won't say that being excluded from a religious ceremony is even remotely the same thing.

I agree concerning religions. It's their right to believe and practice what they want...to a limit. Given all the religious organizations around the world, it's really quite amazing at what things they can get people to do in the name of "honoring God".

My regret now is that I can see what's occurring and that I didn't think for myself all these years. I followed the Church naively, blindly believing that this was true. Now I can see the extent of control the Church (not just the LDS Church)has on it's members and my children.

I was trying to teach my children to think for themselves and to notice that wrong can occur even in the Church at all levels. And just because someone "in authority" says something is true doesn't make it right.

We've become so numbed to spiritual things.
We've come to think religion = spirituality. It's not so.

I used to watch people pray for "those who weren't at Church" and make no effort at all to visit them.

Or to pray for peace and safety...all the time. If this life is to prepare to meet God shouldn't we be praying for all the experiences that we need to have?

Or sitting week and after week (in exactly the same place) listening to lessons over and over and thinking that was spirituality?

To suggest that a physical building (ie a temple) has "the spirit" and has more importance than the people seems like what the Catholics do with their cathedrals. Seems to me that the Temples have become our new sacred cows, the new golden idols of worship.

Because you're in it, you're like a fish in water that can't see the water it's in. The Church tells you that any perspective outside the "safety" of the faith is of the devil and wrong. I'd wonder if one year the Priesthood manual didn't come with preprinted answers what the discussion would be.

Someone comes with an opinion different than yours and the other members gang up on him immediately telling him his opinion is wrong.

Couldn't be that something this guy has to say is valid. We're right you say. It's our right to have a belief that offends others. Apparently it is.

Please, if you would, tell me specifically what's so reasonable and caring and loving about excluding family members from the experience of attending the wedding of their children?

It's true. I'm angry for the moment. I'm feeling hurt. I didn't have a close family as a child. This isn't how I expected this occasion would turn out. I thought that close families did things together. If I had been an evil, or nasty and mistreated them, I'd agree...leave the bum out.

I'll get over this with time.

But I've been and am a good dad. The night before the wedding, my daughter and I stopped at a grocery store to get her some vitamins to stave of a cold she felt was coming on. We came out of the store and I noticed her headlight on her car was out. So there in the cold and snow, and in the dark I fiddled around to replace the bulb. That was my moment with my daughter.

Then showing up at the Temple the next day.

All the while you're believing I'm wrong, what you might want to think about too is what happened to your compassion as a human being when you follow a practice that disappoints and hurts so many and you feel good about it?

From reading your post I think there is more than just this one instance that is really fueling your anger, you seem to despise many things pertaining to organized religion, and you despise anyone that actually cares about their religious beliefs. I won't go so far to say you are a bad father in any way, but since you keep bringing up what a great parent you are have you thought for a moment what this must be doing to your kids? Everything you have said has been about you, and what religions are doing to you and people in your shoes. Maybe you should instead look at this from the perspective of your daughter. Just a thought.

Must be the nature of posting our opinions. Probably like sending mail back and forth. I've tried to be respectful. I'm a dad arguing for the right as a father to participate in an important life event of my children. A religious organization has pushed me out of the way, it's members are actually defending the practice and I find that pretty despicable. Rather than understanding my frustration and having any compassion I'm being castigated as being "self righteous", "needing help" and "delusional". I make any comment that's contrary to anything you've been taught and I'm labeled anti and that leaving the Church couldn't possibly be an intelligent and respected choice.

I'm delusional yet it's the Church that teaches you your underwear will protect you.

I'm out of touch and Utah has the highest use of anti-depression medication in the country.

I'm needing help and Utah has one of the highest rates of bankruptcy in the country.

Things that make you go hmmmm?

You're right, this isn't the forum to take this concern.
I've tried to stay out of this. I understand both sides. I married in the Temple myself. My parents were almost not able to to with me. However, they encouraged me to marry in the temple even without them there because it's what I wanted, and it was MY wedding.

However, you state this isn't the forum to take this concern. You're right about that. Just what do you want or expect us to do? We are not the ones who can change things. Write a letter to President Monson if you wish. The change, if it ever happens, would come from SLC, not us.

Why don't you talk to your daughters about this? They chose to marry in the temple knowing you would not be there. Ask them why, when they knew you would be hurt. Or do you just keep quiet towards them, not wanting to hurt their feelings?

Must be the nature of posting our opinions. Probably like sending mail back and forth. I've tried to be respectful. I'm a dad arguing for the right as a father to participate in an important life event of my children. A religious organization has pushed me out of the way, it's members are actually defending the practice and I find that pretty despicable. Rather than understanding my frustration and having any compassion I'm being castigated as being "self righteous", "needing help" and "delusional". I make any comment that's contrary to anything you've been taught and I'm labeled anti and that leaving the Church couldn't possibly be an intelligent and respected choice.

I'm delusional yet it's the Church that teaches you your underwear will protect you.

I'm out of touch and Utah has the highest use of anti-depression medication in the country.

I'm needing help and Utah has one of the highest rates of bankruptcy in the country.

Things that make you go hmmmm?

You're right, this isn't the forum to take this concern.

Just what is it that you expect then? Sympathy, you've got it in spades. People sympathize, both members and non-members alike. But you have to have something to sympathize over and the bulk of your posts it seems have as much to do with slamming others religious beliefs as they do with what actually happened to you when you were left out of the wedding ceremony. There are some jerks on this forum, maybe I'm one of them but I don't think so. But I can't control what others say on a public forum, nor can you. You can get mad at the collective if you so choose and you can slam an entire faith if you so choose, but that doesn't win me over to your cause.

Understanding? People understand. Maybe you don't. Understanding your situation doesn't mean I have to agree with you. On the subject of understanding, maybe you could try and be more understanding of the LDS faith (instead of slamming it for not meeting your expectations). Who knows, it could help you to come to terms with your hurt feelings.

Change? Not only are you barking up the wrong tree from the start, pursuing an avenue of hate and spite and anger instead of actively petitioning the people who can really change the issue (I don't know if you noticed, but we aren't, nor do we communicate with, the LDS authorities), but why should it change at all?

What I don't see you stating anywhere is that you understand that the LDS members have a right to this and that they might like it this way, your feelings be damned (to put it bluntly). Now, again, I am not LDS, but I understand what the temples mean to the LDS as I have enough of them in my immediate family. And I feel strongly that it is wrong for you to state that despite what the LDS beliefs about temples and the temple ceremonies might be and what those things might mean to the LDS people in the eternal scheme of things that your hurt feelings trump their keys to salvation. Now there might be a better way, a way that could compromise, but that requires both sides to give something up, and neither might be perfectly happy in the end. You may not get what you want and I can certainly tell you that there are LDS people who do not want just anyone allowed into their temples. You think that is mean, they say it is sacred. As the temples belong to them, their money built them for pity's sake, I'm leaning towards them. Maybe you think that is mean, I think it is reality. Your feelings of entitlement as a father don't trump the faith of the LDS people, nor the respect they have for their religious property. If you want to take it up with your daughter that she chose an avenue that excluded her father from her wedding that is your right, but I don't think you have the right to harbor bitterness that you were excluded from an LDS temple for not being a faithful LDS person.

My advice, have a second ceremony that everyone can participate in and leave the temple ceremony between the LDS church and your LDS daughter - I think she would want as much or she wouldn't have pursued that avenue.

Then write a respectful letter to the church authorities and start up a dialogue pertaining to the temple marriage ceremony, maybe some clarification and understanding from the church leaders could go a long way to rectifying the hurt feelings.

I never said anything about therapy, didn't call you "self-righteous" nor make any remarks about you leaving the church as I figure that is your business.

Take care.