Life Rocks wrote:
I sincerely appreciate the tone of your message. You may think I'm way off base, but there's a tone of a understanding to your message.

I have really struggled with this one. It's obvious I'm pretty frustrated and angry with this. Probably a case of a dream that doesn't come through. I grew up in a culture where marriage is a huge, extended family event so to realize now that because of an act of personal integrity, I'm now to be excluded from all of my children's weddings is a huge disappointment.

Interesting, I was at birthday party for a friend last night. He was raised in the Church...married in the Temple...his kids are now at the age where they're getting married. He and his wife feel the Church isn't what it claims to be, but he goes through the motions, "pretending" so that he can be able to attend the weddings. His parents and sister are active in the Church.

Another friend, who has decided after a mission, marriage, 4 or 5 kids, that he's gay. He was excommunicated, had rejoined the Church with a commitment to not do anything that would mess things up. He's stayed married...pays his tithing and is involved with the Church for the most part so he can attend the weddings of his children. His whole family too is in the Church.

I'm beginning to wonder if the price of integrity is just too much? I suppose I could pretend or lie or maybe tell half truths in a Temple recommend interview.

You used the expression "It was my wedding."
I heard someone else say "it's about the kids".

You say it's what you wanted. Really? It was ok with you for your parents not to be there?

Maybe I'm not understanding the concept of marriage in the LDS Church. I'm not saying that the parents should dictate the event. I'm at loss here...I thought a wedding was about the joining of 2 young people and their families and it was an occasion to celebrate. I'm at a loss as to why and how this silly notion of leaving your family out of the wedding ceremony based on worthiness came about.

My thought was that the qualifications of a parent far surpass any worthiness interview and more than a slip of paper and a few questions about the Church.

And looking back at your wedding day...was your Temple experience all that it was touted to be?

And how did you feel, leaving both of your parents out it? It might be interesting if you haven't yet, to go ask them how they felt about that.

I know another LDS family who's father has been an exceptional dad. He's done so many great things for his kids. One of his sons was killed last year in a tragic accident and now he's become the father figure for his grand daughter. I think he's struggled to pay tithing and was excluded from all of his kids weddings. To me that was such a shame.

One time I was trying to figure a way to teach my kids about business and work so I set up a t-shirt shop for them. One of the things we came up with was a t-shirt that said, "I Got Caught Being A Great Dad!" It was serrendipidous (sp?), silly thing and we'd go around looking for fathers who were spending time with their kids. We'd stop and give them a Great Dad t-shirt. We gave hundreds of these shirts and the response was always the same. Dad's were so blown away...some started crying...some got all choked up. They're magical...wonderfully touching moments.

There are a few moments in life that are so deeply human...part of the family experience.

When you say, "It's my wedding". Certainly that's true.

But I see weddings as an opportunity for families to connect on much deeper level. It's a moment for children to acknowledge their parents for helping them to get to be who there are...and if you have children you know it a "hell" of a project raising kids is. It's so fraught with work and worry and heartache and joy and downright panic at times.

It just seems to me that no organization, (what do I know) that not even the Mormon Church should have as a doctrine, the right to steal that moment from a parent and their children.

The 10 commandments say to "honour your father and mother" and I can hear already someone saying by going to the Temple they did...but how can it honour your parents when it leaves any of them out.

It may well be that those who grow up in an LDS culture where you see this kind of thing all the time are used to it.

After 2 weddings, and feeling so frustrated, I wondered if maybe I was way off base with this so
I started asking people...A LOT of people, some LDS and mostly non-LDS what their thoughts were about parents and bar any abuses against their kids, should there be any restriction at all about attending the weddings.

They were almost confounded wondering why I'd ask a question like that at all, after all, who would exclude the parents from their own kids weddings?
They were astounded to discover the Church does it routinely.

What would I like you to do?

You made a comment "We're not the ones who can change things" or "The change, if it ever happens, would come from SLC, not us." Is that really what Mormons' believe?

I subscribe to a different philosophy now more along the lines of this,

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

As for my daughters, I'm sure they married in the Temple because their parents had instilled in them for years it was the place to do it. Both of them were living in either Utah or Idaho so there's a lot of pressure there too. Even to hurry up and get married. They've all lived in different girls apartments and the fridges were covered with tons of wedding announcements.

I had kept quiet, but I'm not going to any more.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Whether you agree with me or not, thanks again for your thoughtful attitude.

Nobody said it's not a hard thing, I know it is, but it was your choices that put you in this situation.

Have you even discussed this with your kids? What are there feelings?


Do you expect the church to really let non members into a building that historically, biblically, and since the begnining of time God has had this rule.


And as I said, for all your stories of people it's been hard on, I have friends and family that understood and respected their childrens sacred beilefs and particpated as much as they could in the planning, prepartion, and were there to be supportive, I wonder if you are this way, or the sulking, bitter Dad you come across as here. As I've said some people don't take it as a slap in the face, but understand the significance of the ceremony, and the sacredness of the temple, and honor and respect there kids decision.

You know Dubbs, I've had 2 people write me privately to apologize for your attacks. The word they used was obnoxious. Apparently it's your joy in life to attack anyone who disagrees with you.
Your continued suggestions that I've been somehow sinful as to why I've left the Church is so disgusting and offensive as to be objectionable.

In other countries, Mexico for one, the state doesn't recognize a wedding in a Church so people end up with two weddings. I checked on line and this is what it said,
(Quote)
The Civil Marriage

Only a civil marriage is recognized as legal in Mexico. You don't need to have a religious ceremony but if you omit the civil ceremony, the marriage will not be legal. Most Mexicans have two marriages: the civil (legal) marriage and the church (religious) one.

According to Wikipedia

The measure is not imposed upon European Mormons, who by law must have a civil ceremony in a designated public place outside the temple for the marriage to be legally valid, or in the case where a home country does not recognize a marriage performed within a temple located in another country.[10] (Note, however, that in such countries, a temple sealing must closely follow the civil ceremony, within the space of a few days at most, otherwise the one-year wait is again necessary.) When a marriage ceremony outside of the temple is required by local law, the church also instructs that this ceremony is to be performed before the temple ceremony, to reinforce the idea of the temple marriage being the "final" ceremony, not a pre-amble to the one required by secular law.

As for my choices. That's the one thing I agree with that you've said.

My choice was believing blindly and naively about the Church. I've painted myself into a corner.
I know that while in the LDS culture in Utah it may be common to see family members left out of the wedding, it's not common anywhere else. You don't need to be "worthy" or a member of a specific Church to attend your kids wedding.

My missionaries didn't teach about it...it never came up at all until my own wedding day. At that point I was so taken up by my own wedding I really didn't think about how my family members felt.

Now I know.

"Again, how do your children feel about your pain and anger? This is a question I, and several others, have asked. You seem to be avoiding answering this one. Not sure it's intentional though."

I'm not sure what you meant by your parents "almost could not go in." Would it still have been as wonderful without them?

My kids are caught between the "rules" and "what to do with dad".

I've really been pretty gracious about it. I stand through the wedding lines laughing and joking with the guests. I cry through the father-daughter dance with them. Perhaps I should just focus on that and be happy with that. Somehow it feels really terrible to be left out.

I understand, Temple marriages are such a huge part of the LDS culture that they are more inclined to "blindly" or "obediently" follow the rules without question and without consideration to anyone else. That was the part that was the most hard to believe.

I'm sure I'm not the only one offended by this practice.

A few years back one of my teenage daughters (not the one's who were married) became pregnant and after months of doctors appointments and walks with her, I ended up as her birth coach. The first night the little guy slept on my chest. The next day the Church swooped in placed him with another family. It's an open adoption. The parents named him an common name, but a name that I see the name everywhere every day.

So now I have these two weddings I didn't get to go to.

Weddings and grandchildren are suppose to be, I thought for a parent, to be something joyful.
So far I'm 0-3.

I'm so sick of the Church's heavy handed intrusion into my personal life.

Life Rocks wrote:
"Again, how do your children feel about your pain and anger? This is a question I, and several others, have asked. You seem to be avoiding answering this one. Not sure it's intentional though."

I'm not sure what you meant by your parents "almost could not go in." Would it still have been as wonderful without them?

My kids are caught between the "rules" and "what to do with dad".

I've really been pretty gracious about it. I stand through the wedding lines laughing and joking with the guests. I cry through the father-daughter dance with them. Perhaps I should just focus on that and be happy with that. Somehow it feels really terrible to be left out.

I understand, Temple marriages are such a huge part of the LDS culture that they are more inclined to "blindly" or "obediently" follow the rules without question and without consideration to anyone else. That was the part that was the most hard to believe.

I'm sure I'm not the only one offended by this practice.

A few years back one of my teenage daughters (not the one's who were married) became pregnant and after months of doctors appointments and walks with her, I ended up as her birth coach. The first night the little guy slept on my chest. The next day the Church swooped in placed him with another family. It's an open adoption. The parents named him an common name, but a name that I see the name everywhere every day.

So now I have these two weddings I didn't get to go to.

Weddings and grandchildren are suppose to be, I thought for a parent, to be something joyful.
So far I'm 0-3.

I'm so sick of the Church's heavy handed intrusion into my personal life.
Wait a minute, now. So far, I've felt for you. But taking the approach of blaming the Church for the adoption isn't going to cut it with me. You daughter had alot to do with that. Quite a bit, I'm sure.

You're going to remain focused on what you didn't get to do instead of what you have. Perhaps you want to focus on the negative because it feeds your bitterness. I just don't know. But as I said, I felt for you until you blamed the church for the adoption. I am very well acquainted with the guy in charge of LDS Social Services in my area (Ogden). You make it sound as if they grabbed the baby right out from under your daughter, against her wishes. Once more, you are absolving your daughers of any fault/blame/whatever. My daughter, too, had a baby out of wedlock. The church was there to support her, NOT take her baby.

My parents "almost" couldn't go because they were not paying their tithe due to a fianancial issue. They were church goers, though. In the end, the Bishop granted them a one-day recommend.

As far as I'm concerned, this issue is talked out. I DO feel for you in missing the weddings, but YOU REFUSE TO PUT ANY 'BLAME' ON YOUR GIRLS. I've asked you many times, HOW DO THEY FEEL ABOUT YOUR PAIN. So far, no answer. Until you do that, this converstation is going nowhere.

KitKat wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
"Again, how do your children feel about your pain and anger? This is a question I, and several others, have asked. You seem to be avoiding answering this one. Not sure it's intentional though."

I'm not sure what you meant by your parents "almost could not go in." Would it still have been as wonderful without them?

My kids are caught between the "rules" and "what to do with dad".

I've really been pretty gracious about it. I stand through the wedding lines laughing and joking with the guests. I cry through the father-daughter dance with them. Perhaps I should just focus on that and be happy with that. Somehow it feels really terrible to be left out.

I understand, Temple marriages are such a huge part of the LDS culture that they are more inclined to "blindly" or "obediently" follow the rules without question and without consideration to anyone else. That was the part that was the most hard to believe.

I'm sure I'm not the only one offended by this practice.

A few years back one of my teenage daughters (not the one's who were married) became pregnant and after months of doctors appointments and walks with her, I ended up as her birth coach. The first night the little guy slept on my chest. The next day the Church swooped in placed him with another family. It's an open adoption. The parents named him an common name, but a name that I see the name everywhere every day.

So now I have these two weddings I didn't get to go to.

Weddings and grandchildren are suppose to be, I thought for a parent, to be something joyful.
So far I'm 0-3.

I'm so sick of the Church's heavy handed intrusion into my personal life.
Wait a minute, now. So far, I've felt for you. But taking the approach of blaming the Church for the adoption isn't going to cut it with me. You daughter had alot to do with that. Quite a bit, I'm sure.

You're going to remain focused on what you didn't get to do instead of what you have. Perhaps you want to focus on the negative because it feeds your bitterness. I just don't know. But as I said, I felt for you until you blamed the church for the adoption. I am very well acquainted with the guy in charge of LDS Social Services in my area (Ogden). You make it sound as if they grabbed the baby right out from under your daughter, against her wishes. Once more, you are absolving your daughers of any fault/blame/whatever. My daughter, too, had a baby out of wedlock. The church was there to support her, NOT take her baby.

My parents "almost" couldn't go because they were not paying their tithe due to a fianancial issue. They were church goers, though. In the end, the Bishop granted them a one-day recommend.

As far as I'm concerned, this issue is talked out. I DO feel for you in missing the weddings, but YOU REFUSE TO PUT ANY 'BLAME' ON YOUR GIRLS. I've asked you many times, HOW DO THEY FEEL ABOUT YOUR PAIN. So far, no answer. Until you do that, this converstation is going nowhere.

Amen KitKat. Once again you are saying just what I was thinking.

Dubbs wrote:
There was a good quote today at church that reminded me of Liferocks, it is that those who are sinning find fault in everything, not just religion, but everthing in their lives. I find this to be true.

You are certainly describing yourself above.