Life Rocks wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Should all religions change their sacred buildings "rules" to accomodate the non beleivers? come on dude, your being ridiculous. Get back to church and get worthy bro, you can do it. Give your family a real worthy priesthood holder in their home that they deserve and are begging for in their prayers.

You tell me. The LDS Church seems to come up with revelations to change it's policies and practices.
I have a hard time believing that a "Heavenly Father" would do anything to preclude the extended family from participating in the marriage of it son or daughter.

They've changed the Temple ceremony...
They've given blacks the priesthood (no one told me about that beauty for 3 years after I joined the Church)
They altered their attitude about baptizing the deceased ancestors of jewish holocaust victims
They changed their attitude about polygamy in practice anyway...
Why not this?

It's any Church's choice to do whatever they wish to do. Just know that the rest of the world has a different view of marriage. They see it as an extended family event.

Emerson said, "What you do shouts so loudly I cannot hear what you say."

That the Church is willfully doing something that hurts tens of thousands of people every year begs the question, why would they do it. Knowing the Temple Recommend interview. Someone suggested it's different than my credentials as a parent. I know. And to suggest that those types of questions makes you "worthy" sure diminishes what worthiness is.

This devotion to "the rules", "the way it is" being "temple worthy" is stripping you of "the spirit" and a connection with your own humanity. You might want to take a look at that. I may need counseling to get over my anger but your kind of talk and behavior is what keeps you focused on the letter of the law and not the spirit.

Thanks for your remarks. They've certainly been enlightening.

At this point you have two choices, accept your childrens sacred beliefs and honor them for having the courage to stand up to the world and the conviction in their beliefs to be married in a sacred place they believe so strongly the importance of the marriage that they are willing to hurt their inactive Dad's feelings to do so.

Or.

Continue to whine and complain in a bitter rant in every newspaper you can find and tell every person you can find, which I'm sure they will hear about if they haven't already, and hurt their feelings even more, and display an incredible lack of love for your kids choices, no matter how good they are, in this case, GREAT decisions. YOu choose.

Certainly anyone has the right to believe as they will until what they do affects someone else.
You want to howl at the moon--go for it,until your howling wakes the neighbors.

This situation with the FLDS in Texas...if all these women want to be married to the same guy. Have at it. The problem comes in where they're teaching children this kind of lifestyle and forcing young girls to marry or ripping off the welfare system. Like someone else has said, "how far does this freedom of religion stuff go?"

Last year I was in Thailand and one of the tours was to the Hill Tribe north of Chiang Mai. Women of the tribe put brass bands around their necks and it stretches their necks to unusual lengths. To me if the women decided themselves to do that. Great. Have at it. The problem though is they've discovered there's money from tourists who come to see them. So now they're now training the young girls...6 or 7 year olds with bands of brass around their necks to start stretching their necks. To me that's wrong.

I'm not about criticizing the Church just to criticize the Church. I don't know how people can grow or develop without challenging their current way of doing things. If you knew there was something you were doing that was so offensive and hurtful to a lot of people, regardless of the organization, do you have the personal conviction and integrity as a human being to say, "This isn't right!"

I was under the impression that the gospel was to train our spirits to be sensitive, to be kind and honorable. I thought that God wanted us to think for ourselves and to look for opportunities to do good in the world rather than waiting to be asked. I was under the impression that we were "not to be commanded in all things" and that as citizens of this world we ought to have the courage to correct injustices.

I could quit here. I didn't even have to write at all, but I feel so strongly about this. The Church's policy to exclude family members from their kids weddings, to me is bordering evil. That a religious organization can willingly be ok with leaving the family outside under the banner of faith in God. I'm getting that those in the Church think it's a perfectly acceptable practice.

And if you don't get that or see the pain it's causing lots of people, and not even notice it or have the courage to speak up--notice that about yourselves.

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.

Dubbs wrote:
Life Rocks wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Should all religions change their sacred buildings "rules" to accomodate the non beleivers? come on dude, your being ridiculous. Get back to church and get worthy bro, you can do it. Give your family a real worthy priesthood holder in their home that they deserve and are begging for in their prayers.

You tell me. The LDS Church seems to come up with revelations to change it's policies and practices.
I have a hard time believing that a "Heavenly Father" would do anything to preclude the extended family from participating in the marriage of it son or daughter.

They've changed the Temple ceremony...
They've given blacks the priesthood (no one told me about that beauty for 3 years after I joined the Church)
They altered their attitude about baptizing the deceased ancestors of jewish holocaust victims
They changed their attitude about polygamy in practice anyway...
Why not this?

It's any Church's choice to do whatever they wish to do. Just know that the rest of the world has a different view of marriage. They see it as an extended family event.

Emerson said, "What you do shouts so loudly I cannot hear what you say."

That the Church is willfully doing something that hurts tens of thousands of people every year begs the question, why would they do it. Knowing the Temple Recommend interview. Someone suggested it's different than my credentials as a parent. I know. And to suggest that those types of questions makes you "worthy" sure diminishes what worthiness is.

This devotion to "the rules", "the way it is" being "temple worthy" is stripping you of "the spirit" and a connection with your own humanity. You might want to take a look at that. I may need counseling to get over my anger but your kind of talk and behavior is what keeps you focused on the letter of the law and not the spirit.

Thanks for your remarks. They've certainly been enlightening.

At this point you have two choices, accept your childrens sacred beliefs and honor them for having the courage to stand up to the world and the conviction in their beliefs to be married in a sacred place they believe so strongly the importance of the marriage that they are willing to hurt their inactive Dad's feelings to do so.

Or.

Continue to whine and complain in a bitter rant in every newspaper you can find and tell every person you can find, which I'm sure they will hear about if they haven't already, and hurt their feelings even more, and display an incredible lack of love for your kids choices, no matter how good they are, in this case, GREAT decisions. YOu choose.

Maybe a better question is,

"If you were to discover that this policy of excluding family members from their kids weddings was having a great negative affect on the image non LDS people have of the Church would you have the courage to say we need to do something about it and then do it?"

For years I was on the inside of the Church looking out and saying many of things that have been posted here. Now that I'm on the outside I can see both points of view which is why I am so strong in my opinion about this. I can see what's happening that I suspect is outside your view of the situation.

If I can create enough awareness about this and the Church (I know you can't imagine it happening) actually realized, "Hey,we're off the mark here" that means I'd be able to attend the rest of the weddings of my kids. But not only that, you and all of the rest of the people around the world will be able to participate in an LDS marriage.

I'll be sure to let my kids know about this.

Life Rocks wrote:
Certainly anyone has the right to believe as they will until what they do affects someone else.
You want to howl at the moon--go for it,until your howling wakes the neighbors.

This situation with the FLDS in Texas...if all these women want to be married to the same guy. Have at it. The problem comes in where they're teaching children this kind of lifestyle and forcing young girls to marry or ripping off the welfare system. Like someone else has said, "how far does this freedom of religion stuff go?"

Last year I was in Thailand and one of the tours was to the Hill Tribe north of Chiang Mai. Women of the tribe put brass bands around their necks and it stretches their necks to unusual lengths. To me if the women decided themselves to do that. Great. Have at it. The problem though is they've discovered there's money from tourists who come to see them. So now they're now training the young girls...6 or 7 year olds with bands of brass around their necks to start stretching their necks. To me that's wrong.

I'm not about criticizing the Church just to criticize the Church. I don't know how people can grow or develop without challenging their current way of doing things. If you knew there was something you were doing that was so offensive and hurtful to a lot of people, regardless of the organization, do you have the personal conviction and integrity as a human being to say, "This isn't right!"

I was under the impression that the gospel was to train our spirits to be sensitive, to be kind and honorable. I thought that God wanted us to think for ourselves and to look for opportunities to do good in the world rather than waiting to be asked. I was under the impression that we were "not to be commanded in all things" and that as citizens of this world we ought to have the courage to correct injustices.

I could quit here. I didn't even have to write at all, but I feel so strongly about this. The Church's policy to exclude family members from their kids weddings, to me is bordering evil. That a religious organization can willingly be ok with leaving the family outside under the banner of faith in God. I'm getting that those in the Church think it's a perfectly acceptable practice.

And if you don't get that or see the pain it's causing lots of people, and not even notice it or have the courage to speak up--notice that about yourselves.

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.


God also wants a sacred place that he can dwell, it's always been so, Old Testement times God only allowed priests and high preists into temples, and only certain men into the holy of holy's. You want to be mad, take it up with God, not the church. And it's not just the LDS church, other faiths have sacred places that have rules to enter. Because temples have always been around and have ALWAY's had rules for entering.


It's like the argument that homosexuality could change in the church, allowing them to have their actions with no consequence. Possible? Yes, I guess, Historically Probable? No, since God has has the same command since the history of the world? Not very probable in your argument historically, in either arguement historically God has never changed in these two areas.

Again, to me you are being very damaging towards your relationship with your kids, they are following their religious testimonies, and doing something they feel very strong about, you should be honoring them, not going out publicly and bashing their decision and their faith at every public place you can. I'm sure they see your actions, or will at some point, and be disgusted with you, it's only hurting yourself at this point.

I agree with you Life Rocks! I was once a church goer, but when I became older and wiser I quit going. It's people like Dubss that make it difficult to believe in the church (among other obvious things) so I support your problem. I also know several people who had children marry in the temple and they couldn't attend. I'm glad my teenaged daughter is not active in the church and states she never will be, so I can attend her wedding.

Life Rocks wrote:

As for being angry about this. You bet I'm angry. Anger in this instance is more than justified. I think God is angry too. The thought occurs to me that "God the Father", knowing how hard it is to be a parent, has a special place for devoted dads. A normal father who loves his kids should be angry at such a practice.

So you're really really really angry that the Church didn't allow you to go inside the temple at your daughters Sealing because you think the Church is a bunch of hooey. I got that.

So if one of your other 8 children, that you raised LDS, decides to join the Church of Satan and invites you to attend their wedding where you actually get to go inside. And they sacrifice an animal and drink its blood. You would be very very happy. Because witnessing that is very very important to you. I get it.

You're a great dad.