Jaye wrote:
Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Well now. . .All these posts remind me of my experience in church last Sunday. . .A little boy sitting next to me threw up. . .EEEEE-UUUUU!!!

One day, I would like to know what started all these raw feelings amongst some of you, but until then, let's address LifeRocks' issues, OR even talk about suggestions for Mother's Day gifts/what we're doing for the special women in our lives on that day.

I had a little cousin who was famous for projectile barfing.

That little tot would be sitting on his mom's lap, and he would yark.

The yark by-passed three or four people and landed on the lap of the fifth.

It wasn't long before the family had the whole pew to themselves.

And anyone sitting in front of them, or behind them started sweating if the tot was facing forward, or smiling at them over his mom's shoulder.

Your cousin could do this whenever he wanted? I would be very afraid.

When my two oldest children (boys) were little, they really "enjoyed" the reverence during the sacrament. By "enjoyed" I mean they thought it was too quiet, so inevitably they would see who could burp the loudest and longest. By the time we could get them out of the chapel, they'd managed to show their unmatched skills several times. To their credit, many of the grandparents in our ward really liked to sit around us because of the free entertainment, and especially found it funny when the boys would say, "Now, Mom, it's your turn." Those were the days!

Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Well now. . .All these posts remind me of my experience in church last Sunday. . .A little boy sitting next to me threw up. . .EEEEE-UUUUU!!!

One day, I would like to know what started all these raw feelings amongst some of you, but until then, let's address LifeRocks' issues, OR even talk about suggestions for Mother's Day gifts/what we're doing for the special women in our lives on that day.

I had a little cousin who was famous for projectile barfing.

That little tot would be sitting on his mom's lap, and he would yark.

The yark by-passed three or four people and landed on the lap of the fifth.

It wasn't long before the family had the whole pew to themselves.

And anyone sitting in front of them, or behind them started sweating if the tot was facing forward, or smiling at them over his mom's shoulder.

Your cousin could do this whenever he wanted? I would be very afraid.

When my two oldest children (boys) were little, they really "enjoyed" the reverence during the sacrament. By "enjoyed" I mean they thought it was too quiet, so inevitably they would see who could burp the loudest and longest. By the time we could get them out of the chapel, they'd managed to show their unmatched skills several times. To their credit, many of the grandparents in our ward really liked to sit around us because of the free entertainment, and especially found it funny when the boys would say, "Now, Mom, it's your turn." Those were the days!

When my mom sneezed...it sounded like she was yelling...AW SH*T!!!

And she always managed to sneeze several times in that dusty old chapel...and never failed to do it at least once during Sacrament.

This was a woman who never even said 'darn'. It really threw her for a loop.

As for a lawsuit...I'm not sure.

I get so sick of the "freedom of religion" garbage.

This current situation with the FLDS church is so typical. The LDS/FLDS has a 90 year common history and the LDS Church tries to divorce itself of it as if there was no association to the FLDS Church exists at all yet there would be no FLDS Church without the LDS Church.

The founding fathers decided to allow people the freedom to worship without government intervention and the people of all these faiths keep pushing the line of stupidity farther and farther expecting everyone else to accommodate you just because you believe something.

Then Church's hide behind their tax free status to grow to such gigantic proportions. The LDS Church isn't a religion, it's a massive business with free labor with vast real estate holdings.... broadcasting company... insurance company... travel company...a chain of bookstores... publishing company... banks...department stores...universities with rental properties to get even more money.
ll that and no accountability.
Call it for what it is.

Why it concerns me is that even in the bible we are told that salvation should be available "without price". The Church is more concerned about money and expanding the empire than about it's people.

All I wanted to do as my children's father (not like I'm crashing a strangers wedding) is to get to see them get married and you and your lousy rotten Church say no.

I admit, I made a huge mistake getting so involved in the Church. It's been a very painful and regretable situation.

The affect? All I had hoped for was to accommodate in some way those you and your Church hurt.

You said, "You appear to believe that everyone within the Church membership goes blithely along with everything the Church decides."

To that I reply, look at the result and ask yourself what part you have in this? If you say nothing, always following the teachings of your leaders then I guess that includes you.

If the Church is true it needn't hide behind telling the members not to criticize. Seems here, anyone of the leaders says anything and there's seldom a time when anyone calls them on anything.

I remember as a young missionary I was tearful over Paul Dunn talks...only to discover that he fabricated or embellished much of what he said.

Cree-l Kofford makes some comment about it being against God's will to have a secondary ceremony and no one calls him on it...like you need permission to do anything.

You said, "This is not entirely accurate. There are many among the membership who would even agree with you on this issue, regarding the harm being perpetrated upon non-member families who are not allowed to witness and participate in their LDS children's Temple weddings."

So what if you agree with something and not being willing to do anything about it? or to speak up?

You said, "And you are going to try to change how weddings are done here in the U.S."

Why not? We'll have a civil ceremony and then if you want to have your sealing in the Temple and exclude the world, have had it.

You said, "Are you really going to advocate government intervention into Church procedure? Dangerous stuff. You're talking about advocation of government control in every religious faith."

I haven't gotten anything done yet. This is new territory. As for our Founding Fathers, I don't know how you know what they would think about this...seems to me they would look at what the LDS Church does, as did the Federal Government in the 1880's and decide (as reasonable people would if they knew) that the LDS Church is capable of doing some pretty cruel stuff. Don't lose any sleep yet...I'm just getting started.

But know this. Right now the FLDS Church is in the news...is highly visible. This is a perfect time to expose this part of the LDS Church. The media is going to have a field day.

You might you agree with me but i suspect if someone from the Church decided you were stepping across the line having any criticism and threatened you at all, you'd retreat.

Let's be clear here.

I don't want the Church's money though I find that kind of excessive wealth disturbing especially pretending to be a church.That people need to sacrifice the welfare of their families under the threat of losing eternal salvation (fire insurance)is loathsome and disgusting.

I don't want vengeance. I want some reasonableness. If your daughter was getting married and I said, "Just because i believe X you can't be included but I'll come up with something to make you feel better" you'd be outraged and hurt.

As for what Jesus said, The Saviour went around serving people...he sent his apostles without purse or script, not leather bound, gold leafed quadruple combinations and diamond studded CTR rings.

He cast the money changers out of the temple.

I'm not really interested in getting beat up by offering my other cheek..or giving all I have "to the building up of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints"...I don't buy that anymore.

I don't mind being of service...and helping the poor. I always thought that service was to be done anonymously. In fact when i do it, I don't have my name plastered over everything expecting to use my service to gain converts to my religion as the Church does.

And while we obviously disagree with the how to do this, I do wish you well in life. I hope this brings you real joy. I wish it did for me. But when I find a bully in the schoolyard, someone has to put him in his place otherwise he becomes confident and continues to hurt others. it's about time someone said something.

I've gone to some extreme lengths to avoid confrontation. I used to think reasonableness should prevail. I used think if were work together we can work out a solution that works for both of us. But the Church isn't about reasonableness or compassion. it's about control.

And so you know, i'd have the same attitude if this were about your children getting married and you not able to go, i'd fight just as hard for you and your happiness.

I hear Goliath lost.

Life Rocks wrote:
As for a lawsuit...I'm not sure.

I get so sick of the "freedom of religion" garbage.

Yea, I get sick of that freedom of speech and freedom to carry arms thing to, also that equal rights for minorities thing, gosh, all these rights are soooo annoying.

Why it concerns me is that even in the bible we are told that salvation should be available "without price"

Not exactly, there's many commands and ordinances that are also involved. Nothing's free. The bible teaches this also.

Where is the phrase "without price" found?


All I wanted to do as my children's father (not like I'm crashing a strangers wedding) is to get to see them get married and you and your lousy rotten Church say no.

We get it, you've said this how many times now? Wow, if this is what your family has to hear daily, I'm sure there as sick of it as we are.



I admit, I made a huge mistake getting so involved in the Church. It's been a very painful and regretable situation.

If you can say your life is better and your more happy now, it would seem you would move on and not sound so mad and bitter, which it seems you are, which to me means you made a huge mistake, I think deep down you know that.



The affect? All I had hoped for was to accommodate in some way those you and your Church hurt.

Who's this "you" you are referring to?



To that I reply, look at the result and ask yourself what part you have in this? If you say nothing, always following the teachings of your leaders then I guess that includes you.

What if we believe everything being taught, including temple worthiness being a qualification for entering Gods temple, as God commands?


If the Church is true it needn't hide behind telling the members not to criticize. Seems here, anyone of the leaders says anything and there's seldom a time when anyone calls them on anything.

What should I call them on if I believe they are inspired of God?



I remember as a young missionary I was tearful over Paul Dunn talks...only to discover that he fabricated or embellished much of what he said.

And this has to do with this conversation how?

Cree-l Kofford makes some comment about it being against God's will to have a secondary ceremony and no one calls him on it...like you need permission to do anything.


Huh? Who's cree1 kofford



But know this. Right now the FLDS Church is in the news...is highly visible. This is a perfect time to expose this part of the LDS Church. The media is going to have a field day.


Heard this before, when the PBS special came out, many other times the FLDS church has been in the news, Not sure what your point is, the church has had bad media coverage for pretty much it's whole exisatance. And?


You might you agree with me but i suspect if someone from the Church decided you were stepping across the line having any criticism and threatened you at all, you'd retreat.

Depends on their testimony of what's truth, and what they felt about what concept your discussing wouldn't it?


I don't want the Church's money though I find that kind of excessive wealth disturbing especially pretending to be a church.That people need to sacrifice the welfare of their families under the threat of losing eternal salvation (fire insurance)is loathsome and disgusting.


You quoted the Bible earlier, so I would assume you believe it, now your mocking the biblical concept of tithing, and the scripture that talks about the "fire insurance" your speaking of. Make up your mind, do you believe in the bible or not?


I don't want vengeance. I want some reasonableness. If your daughter was getting married and I said, "Just because i believe X you can't be included but I'll come up with something to make you feel better" you'd be outraged and hurt.

I believe you do want vengeance, and are being consumed by it. If my daughter made a decision and it was a decsion to marry a good guy that has family values and is sticking to her religious convictions that I taught her, I'd be proud.


As for what Jesus said, The Saviour went around serving people...he sent his apostles without purse or script, not leather bound, gold leafed quadruple combinations and diamond studded CTR rings.

Were you a missionary? Did you serve people? Did you pay a tithe and fast offering? Is that not serving people? Did you do the cannery or any other type of service the church encourages? The church has given out almost 30 million a year in aide to countries all over the world. I'd say they are serving people fairly well.

He cast the money changers out of the temple.

Mmmmm, sounds familiar, there was something he was trying to say about the sacredness of the temple I'd say.


I'm not really interested in getting beat up by offering my other cheek..or giving all I have "to the building up of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints"...I don't buy that anymore.

Yes, but your children do, and you need to get over your self rightous attitude and support them, and stop fighting against your childrens beliefs.



I don't mind being of service...and helping the poor. I always thought that service was to be done anonymously. In fact when i do it, I don't have my name plastered over everything expecting to use my service to gain converts to my religion as the Church does.

I've done many service for the church as well as my extended family and friends, never seen there names nor mine plastered anywhere. You are grasping at straws now bro. Getting silly.

But the Church isn't about reasonableness or compassion. it's about control.

And now your trying to control their beliefs, and change them.



I hear Goliath lost.

Yes, to a guy who went to the temple, and got married there, and that temple had rules to enter also, take it up with God.

Life Rocks wrote:
As for a lawsuit...I'm not sure.

I get so sick of the "freedom of religion" garbage.

This current situation with the FLDS church is so typical. The LDS/FLDS has a 90 year common history and the LDS Church tries to divorce itself of it as if there was no association to the FLDS Church exists at all yet there would be no FLDS Church without the LDS Church.

The founding fathers decided to allow people the freedom to worship without government intervention and the people of all these faiths keep pushing the line of stupidity farther and farther expecting everyone else to accommodate you just because you believe something.

Then Church's hide behind their tax free status to grow to such gigantic proportions. The LDS Church isn't a religion, it's a massive business with free labor with vast real estate holdings.... broadcasting company... insurance company... travel company...a chain of bookstores... publishing company... banks...department stores...universities with rental properties to get even more money.
ll that and no accountability.
Call it for what it is.

Why it concerns me is that even in the bible we are told that salvation should be available "without price". The Church is more concerned about money and expanding the empire than about it's people.

All I wanted to do as my children's father (not like I'm crashing a strangers wedding) is to get to see them get married and you and your lousy rotten Church say no.

I admit, I made a huge mistake getting so involved in the Church. It's been a very painful and regretable situation.

The affect? All I had hoped for was to accommodate in some way those you and your Church hurt.

You said, "You appear to believe that everyone within the Church membership goes blithely along with everything the Church decides."

To that I reply, look at the result and ask yourself what part you have in this? If you say nothing, always following the teachings of your leaders then I guess that includes you.

If the Church is true it needn't hide behind telling the members not to criticize. Seems here, anyone of the leaders says anything and there's seldom a time when anyone calls them on anything.

I remember as a young missionary I was tearful over Paul Dunn talks...only to discover that he fabricated or embellished much of what he said.

Cree-l Kofford makes some comment about it being against God's will to have a secondary ceremony and no one calls him on it...like you need permission to do anything.

You said, "This is not entirely accurate. There are many among the membership who would even agree with you on this issue, regarding the harm being perpetrated upon non-member families who are not allowed to witness and participate in their LDS children's Temple weddings."

So what if you agree with something and not being willing to do anything about it? or to speak up?

You said, "And you are going to try to change how weddings are done here in the U.S."

Why not? We'll have a civil ceremony and then if you want to have your sealing in the Temple and exclude the world, have had it.

You said, "Are you really going to advocate government intervention into Church procedure? Dangerous stuff. You're talking about advocation of government control in every religious faith."

I haven't gotten anything done yet. This is new territory. As for our Founding Fathers, I don't know how you know what they would think about this...seems to me they would look at what the LDS Church does, as did the Federal Government in the 1880's and decide (as reasonable people would if they knew) that the LDS Church is capable of doing some pretty cruel stuff. Don't lose any sleep yet...I'm just getting started.

But know this. Right now the FLDS Church is in the news...is highly visible. This is a perfect time to expose this part of the LDS Church. The media is going to have a field day.

You might you agree with me but i suspect if someone from the Church decided you were stepping across the line having any criticism and threatened you at all, you'd retreat.

Let's be clear here.

I don't want the Church's money though I find that kind of excessive wealth disturbing especially pretending to be a church.That people need to sacrifice the welfare of their families under the threat of losing eternal salvation (fire insurance)is loathsome and disgusting.

I don't want vengeance. I want some reasonableness. If your daughter was getting married and I said, "Just because i believe X you can't be included but I'll come up with something to make you feel better" you'd be outraged and hurt.

As for what Jesus said, The Saviour went around serving people...he sent his apostles without purse or script, not leather bound, gold leafed quadruple combinations and diamond studded CTR rings.

He cast the money changers out of the temple.

I'm not really interested in getting beat up by offering my other cheek..or giving all I have "to the building up of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints"...I don't buy that anymore.

I don't mind being of service...and helping the poor. I always thought that service was to be done anonymously. In fact when i do it, I don't have my name plastered over everything expecting to use my service to gain converts to my religion as the Church does.

And while we obviously disagree with the how to do this, I do wish you well in life. I hope this brings you real joy. I wish it did for me. But when I find a bully in the schoolyard, someone has to put him in his place otherwise he becomes confident and continues to hurt others. it's about time someone said something.

I've gone to some extreme lengths to avoid confrontation. I used to think reasonableness should prevail. I used think if were work together we can work out a solution that works for both of us. But the Church isn't about reasonableness or compassion. it's about control.

And so you know, i'd have the same attitude if this were about your children getting married and you not able to go, i'd fight just as hard for you and your happiness.

I hear Goliath lost.
I would like to know exactly how your daughters (the temple married ones) feel about this. You simply are not getting that they were not forced to marry in the temple. IT WAS THEIR CHOICE!

By the way, the Church does pay taxes. Don't you know that there is a business arm to the church that manages the real estate holdings and businesses? Taxes ARE paid on these things.

There are so many things in your post I could debate. But I won't because you just say the same things over and over. You are obsessed with this. You fail to see that your own daughters/wife share some "blame" in this. Even you have some blame. After all, you did raise your family in the church.

I do wish there was a way to work this out for people like you. But there really isn't anything we "regular" members can do about it. Change does have to come from SLC. I suggested once that you write to President Monson. He has more power to change things than we do.

LOL...Dubs, you asked who "creel kofford" is.
Tthis is the guy who wrote the article that Jaye posted several days back. It's the article that I referenced when we were debating when/where to wear temple garments. And you told me you did read that post. Apparently, you did not. No wonder you constantly lose debates.

Just go to LDS.org and search his name. You're going to feel stupid.