ThomasK wrote:
Wren wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
dubbs, in regard to your always claiming that Christian pastors bash Mormons, are you claiming that this goes on during Sunday services?

Where do you get this idea? Have you ever attended any other Christian denominations services where this went on while you were there?

Or are you just guilty of strictly parroting some hateful rumor that you possibly heard during Sunday services or possibly General conference of the LDS church?

Can you provide any evidence of Christian ministers preaching these hateful statements against Mormons from the pulpit?

Now I can produce evidence of Mormon prophets and general authorities bashing Christians from the pulpit,should we look at this evidence?

There is plenty of this "bashing" to go around. There was a post on here just a couple of days ago from an evangelical site that talked about the LDS beliefs as ludicrous etc. So yes, there's plenty to go around. But I do admit, evangelicals are equal opportunity bashers. They dislike everyone. But whats the point? You and dubbs are quite alike in that respect. I don't find much useful in either one of your "discussions".

I would welcome discussing beliefs but it always seems to go downhill here. Your idea of salvation is different than mine, so what. The only way we're going to find out who is right is to kick the bucket. You're welcome to go first and report back.

OK ThomasK, you're obviously forgetting that it is the Mormon Church and its membership who consider all other religions apostate, it is also your religion who considers all others as lacking any authority from God whatsoever.

let's not forget Mormonism's pre-1990 temple ceremony where they portray all Christian ministers as the hirelings of Satan.

And as to your not finding anything useful in my discussions, that's OK because I take my information straight from Mormonism's leaders and you don't like that my little friend.

Our views on salvation ("eternal life with God" definitely differ and sadly for those who have been deceived it's too late once you die.

Look if you don't believe in the LDS Faith, than it doesn't matter if you are an "apostate or lack authority", anymore than your views that I'm "sadly deceived and it's too late once I die", matters to me. Get it little friend?

ThomasK, I understand your feelings about this. However, when a church preaches that it is the only true church with God's authority, expect to be asked for evidence. And expect that you have to produce it. And then expect it to be examined minutely and carefully. It should be, if it is what you claim, and it should stand up to examination, should it not?

I suppose so. We probably need to duke it out with the Catholics, since we're talking about priesthood authority.

In the end, we are talking about Faith. I don't know how you can prove that. Was the Book of Mormon translated from anceint plates? The only way we can know that is if the angel Moroni shows them to us. Was Joseph Smith ordained by John the Baptist? Sounds far fetched, doesn't it. Is the Bible the word of God? What evidence is there? Is there a GOD? Prove it. If we are made in His image, would that be Asian, African, Caucasian, Indian......

Now wait a minute ThomasK is it the Angel Moroni or the Angel Nephi that we should talk too ??
because Joseph Smith identified the angel as "Nephi" not "Moroni", That was changed later on by Joseph and the Church because it made better sense that Moroni had the Gold Plates then Nephi having them...

on May 2, 1838 Smith began dictating a church history that included a detailed account of his visits from the angel (Smith 1838a, p. 7). Smith identified the angel as "Nephi", which is the name of the Book of Mormon's first narrator, not Moroni,
In the Times and Seasons, which Smith edited himself (Smith 1842, p. 753), and in Millennial Star (Pratt 1842, p. 53). Joseph Smith repeated again that the Angels name was "Nephi" also in the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price (Richards 1851, p. 41). It was also repeated that the Angels Name who gave him the golden plates was "Nephi"
even in 1853 when Smith's mother Lucy Mack Smith published a history of her son (Smith 1853, p. 79). She said that the Angels name was "Nephi" as told to her by her Son...

We can find many errors in the Holy Bible, too, JR.

If you are trying to disprove faith by logic, understand you are evaluating the metaphysical nature with the physical nature. It won't work. Go back and read Paul.

However, if you are evaluating the veracity of a claim, such as the JS papyri, then you are on the right track. It may show discredit to the Mormon church but not to the Mormon faith. Does that make sense?

Just Reading wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Wren wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
dubbs, in regard to your always claiming that Christian pastors bash Mormons, are you claiming that this goes on during Sunday services?

Where do you get this idea? Have you ever attended any other Christian denominations services where this went on while you were there?

Or are you just guilty of strictly parroting some hateful rumor that you possibly heard during Sunday services or possibly General conference of the LDS church?

Can you provide any evidence of Christian ministers preaching these hateful statements against Mormons from the pulpit?

Now I can produce evidence of Mormon prophets and general authorities bashing Christians from the pulpit,should we look at this evidence?

There is plenty of this "bashing" to go around. There was a post on here just a couple of days ago from an evangelical site that talked about the LDS beliefs as ludicrous etc. So yes, there's plenty to go around. But I do admit, evangelicals are equal opportunity bashers. They dislike everyone. But whats the point? You and dubbs are quite alike in that respect. I don't find much useful in either one of your "discussions".

I would welcome discussing beliefs but it always seems to go downhill here. Your idea of salvation is different than mine, so what. The only way we're going to find out who is right is to kick the bucket. You're welcome to go first and report back.

OK ThomasK, you're obviously forgetting that it is the Mormon Church and its membership who consider all other religions apostate, it is also your religion who considers all others as lacking any authority from God whatsoever.

let's not forget Mormonism's pre-1990 temple ceremony where they portray all Christian ministers as the hirelings of Satan.

And as to your not finding anything useful in my discussions, that's OK because I take my information straight from Mormonism's leaders and you don't like that my little friend.

Our views on salvation ("eternal life with God" definitely differ and sadly for those who have been deceived it's too late once you die.

Look if you don't believe in the LDS Faith, than it doesn't matter if you are an "apostate or lack authority", anymore than your views that I'm "sadly deceived and it's too late once I die", matters to me. Get it little friend?

ThomasK, I understand your feelings about this. However, when a church preaches that it is the only true church with God's authority, expect to be asked for evidence. And expect that you have to produce it. And then expect it to be examined minutely and carefully. It should be, if it is what you claim, and it should stand up to examination, should it not?

I suppose so. We probably need to duke it out with the Catholics, since we're talking about priesthood authority.

In the end, we are talking about Faith. I don't know how you can prove that. Was the Book of Mormon translated from anceint plates? The only way we can know that is if the angel Moroni shows them to us. Was Joseph Smith ordained by John the Baptist? Sounds far fetched, doesn't it. Is the Bible the word of God? What evidence is there? Is there a GOD? Prove it. If we are made in His image, would that be Asian, African, Caucasian, Indian......

Now wait a minute ThomasK is it the Angel Moroni or the Angel Nephi that we should talk too ??
because Joseph Smith identified the angel as "Nephi" not "Moroni", That was changed later on by Joseph and the Church because it made better sense that Moroni had the Gold Plates then Nephi having them...

on May 2, 1838 Smith began dictating a church history that included a detailed account of his visits from the angel (Smith 1838a, p. 7). Smith identified the angel as "Nephi", which is the name of the Book of Mormon's first narrator, not Moroni,
In the Times and Seasons, which Smith edited himself (Smith 1842, p. 753), and in Millennial Star (Pratt 1842, p. 53). Joseph Smith repeated again that the Angels name was "Nephi" also in the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price (Richards 1851, p. 41). It was also repeated that the Angels Name who gave him the golden plates was "Nephi"
even in 1853 when Smith's mother Lucy Mack Smith published a history of her son (Smith 1853, p. 79). She said that the Angels name was "Nephi" as told to her by her Son...

Your reading too many anti sites again and not the truth, this was a simple mistake of a newsppaer article in the times and season that got carried over to church history, it was later corrected, as Joseph had put even in the D%C many years earlier the story of Moroni, it was a simple mistake. Happens with humans big.

Wren wrote:
We can find many errors in the Holy Bible, too, JR.

If you are trying to disprove faith by logic, understand you are evaluating the metaphysical nature with the physical nature. It won't work. Go back and read Paul.

However, if you are evaluating the veracity of a claim, such as the JS papyri, then you are on the right track. It may show discredit to the Mormon church but not to the Mormon faith. Does that make sense?

No it doesn't make sense, neither do you.

Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
We can find many errors in the Holy Bible, too, JR.

If you are trying to disprove faith by logic, understand you are evaluating the metaphysical nature with the physical nature. It won't work. Go back and read Paul.

However, if you are evaluating the veracity of a claim, such as the JS papyri, then you are on the right track. It may show discredit to the Mormon church but not to the Mormon faith. Does that make sense?

No it doesn't make sense, neither do you.

That you do not understand the difference between the physical and metaphysical worlds remains quite apparent.

Dubbs, you can't prove that Mormonism as a faith is true or false. That is simply a faith belief.

However, one can evaluate the probability of the LDS church if one makes a statement that it is the one true church. That probability can be measured by its history, doctrines, and policies.

I understand that you are unable to argue effectively, either with me or anyone else, including TigerLily. Jaye just trashes your arguments. You get rude to Bearyb when he offers you great advice. That's just the way you are.

You want to do better? Humble yourself, go to college, learn how to write and analyze, learn critical thinking skills, and you possibly may make something of yourself.

As it is right now, your persona on this forum is only that of a stick-figure joke. And it reflects the 'you' out there in the world on a daily basis.

Just Reading wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Wren wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
dubbs, in regard to your always claiming that Christian pastors bash Mormons, are you claiming that this goes on during Sunday services?

Where do you get this idea? Have you ever attended any other Christian denominations services where this went on while you were there?

Or are you just guilty of strictly parroting some hateful rumor that you possibly heard during Sunday services or possibly General conference of the LDS church?

Can you provide any evidence of Christian ministers preaching these hateful statements against Mormons from the pulpit?

Now I can produce evidence of Mormon prophets and general authorities bashing Christians from the pulpit,should we look at this evidence?

There is plenty of this "bashing" to go around. There was a post on here just a couple of days ago from an evangelical site that talked about the LDS beliefs as ludicrous etc. So yes, there's plenty to go around. But I do admit, evangelicals are equal opportunity bashers. They dislike everyone. But whats the point? You and dubbs are quite alike in that respect. I don't find much useful in either one of your "discussions".

I would welcome discussing beliefs but it always seems to go downhill here. Your idea of salvation is different than mine, so what. The only way we're going to find out who is right is to kick the bucket. You're welcome to go first and report back.

OK ThomasK, you're obviously forgetting that it is the Mormon Church and its membership who consider all other religions apostate, it is also your religion who considers all others as lacking any authority from God whatsoever.

let's not forget Mormonism's pre-1990 temple ceremony where they portray all Christian ministers as the hirelings of Satan.

And as to your not finding anything useful in my discussions, that's OK because I take my information straight from Mormonism's leaders and you don't like that my little friend.

Our views on salvation ("eternal life with God" definitely differ and sadly for those who have been deceived it's too late once you die.

Look if you don't believe in the LDS Faith, than it doesn't matter if you are an "apostate or lack authority", anymore than your views that I'm "sadly deceived and it's too late once I die", matters to me. Get it little friend?

ThomasK, I understand your feelings about this. However, when a church preaches that it is the only true church with God's authority, expect to be asked for evidence. And expect that you have to produce it. And then expect it to be examined minutely and carefully. It should be, if it is what you claim, and it should stand up to examination, should it not?

I suppose so. We probably need to duke it out with the Catholics, since we're talking about priesthood authority.

In the end, we are talking about Faith. I don't know how you can prove that. Was the Book of Mormon translated from anceint plates? The only way we can know that is if the angel Moroni shows them to us. Was Joseph Smith ordained by John the Baptist? Sounds far fetched, doesn't it. Is the Bible the word of God? What evidence is there? Is there a GOD? Prove it. If we are made in His image, would that be Asian, African, Caucasian, Indian......

Now wait a minute ThomasK is it the Angel Moroni or the Angel Nephi that we should talk too ??
because Joseph Smith identified the angel as "Nephi" not "Moroni", That was changed later on by Joseph and the Church because it made better sense that Moroni had the Gold Plates then Nephi having them...

on May 2, 1838 Smith began dictating a church history that included a detailed account of his visits from the angel (Smith 1838a, p. 7). Smith identified the angel as "Nephi", which is the name of the Book of Mormon's first narrator, not Moroni,
In the Times and Seasons, which Smith edited himself (Smith 1842, p. 753), and in Millennial Star (Pratt 1842, p. 53). Joseph Smith repeated again that the Angels name was "Nephi" also in the first edition of the Pearl of Great Price (Richards 1851, p. 41). It was also repeated that the Angels Name who gave him the golden plates was "Nephi"
even in 1853 when Smith's mother Lucy Mack Smith published a history of her son (Smith 1853, p. 79). She said that the Angels name was "Nephi" as told to her by her Son...

It's hard to tell, they all look alike to me. Although, Moroni was a Nephite.

JR, I'm probably the wrong one to debate these things with. Bearyb would be much better at this than me. I know this is going to sound dumbfounding, for lack of a better term. And it's going to frustrate the hell out of you. It really doesn't matter to me. I'm not in this to prove/disprove anyone else's beliefs or even my own. I believe in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. The concepts of the LDS Faith concerning this, fits me. The concept of an eternal family, I like. Faith, repentance and forgiveness in accordance with the Atonement in the LDS Faith is what helps me. It just might all be a bunch of hooey. And if it is, so what? I just happen to find it to be, the way I want to live.

Now would be a good time to bear my testimony. But how do I know? I DON'T.

BTW, this is my testimony.