ThomasK wrote:
BLogan wrote:
The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.
President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Vol.8.


Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.
Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.


It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.
President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Vol.18.


We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.
Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Vol. 15.

I prefer the Church's position concerning this:

"The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest. ... Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

BTW, you can download it free from BYU instead of paying for it from the website where you got your quotes.

What about the Book of Abraham??

If in fact Joseph Smith translated an ancient record of the patriarch Abraham through the power of God, he must be the prophet and seer he claimed to be right,

But if the Book of Abraham is a fabrication, then Joseph Smith was a fraud right??

and then the same might/could be said of the Book of Mormon right??

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
No one has ever been disciplined, excommunicated, or any other church measures for not believing or adhering to in the "Adam-God Theory".

If that's what you believe...then that's what you believe. It is unlikely that if they didn't believe, or adhere to any specific doctrine that Brigham Young taught from the pulpit...that they would openly dissent.

Because according to the history of the Danites...members who openly dissented against the orders, teachings, and/or edicts of Brigham Young, might possibly stand to be 'used up'...and the Danites acted under orders.

OK, name names of people that we excommunicated for not believing or adhering to the "Adam-God Theory". You challenged my quote, so let's here it. So what you're also saying is that people were being excommunicated for disagreeing with "theories". What other "theories" was this happening with?

I'm waiting.

And so long as you behave like Kent...you can keep waiting. Or you can discuss this like a rational adult.

It remains to be seen.

At any rate...why do you think Orson Pratt was excommunicated?


He's been respectful Jaye, just as you did with Bearyb when he was, accuse him of being evil etc. What a joke you are. Just answer the question. Is acting like me asking for proof of things you and your twin brother Wren say? If so, I'm proud to be like me.

I am sure those at MMM felt as do you.

Dubbs, do you truly believe that your bishop, your stake president, and the regional authorities would approve of what you are doing here?

You are the perfect example of how one letter turns "reason" into "treason", and that is what you are committing against the LDS church with your antics. You lie, you cheat, you fabricate, you swear, you name call, and you say you are a good LDS person.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
[b] If you did any of the above, your scholastic approach is not . . . scholastic. You need to be more rigorous in your approach.


And we're still waiting for your proof, you have shown NOTHING, so much for your own "scholorly" approach.

Of course I have, and of course you haven't.
You are becoming Jaye, Come on dude, develop your own personality, don't adopt someone elses. Have your own thoughts.

Wren and my other forum pals have my permission to borrow my phrases.

You on the other hand...do not.

So...what's your excuse for copying just about every phrase I've ever used on this forum...eh?

BS, BS, and of course BS

(enter polygamy serman copy and paste here)

(enter blacks in preisthood sermon here)

That's about it for Jaye's annoying piano key tap tap tapping to the annoyance of all.

And the polygamy and blacks and the priesthood sermons are to the point, they are accurate, and you have admitted them before. Now you are going the other way. Typical.

Dubbs, do you truly believe that your bishop, your stake president, and the regional authorities would approve of what you are doing here?

You are the perfect example of how one letter turns "reason" into "treason", and that is what you are committing against the LDS church with your antics. You lie, you cheat, you fabricate, you swear, you name call, and you say you are a good LDS person.

JR, let me tell you who Dubbs is.

He lives in an apartment in Phoenix. He goes to school (still?) at University of Phoenix. He works construction as a day laborer, because he can't do anything else.

He is not wealthy, he is not a contractor, he does not own three homes. I am not sure that he is married (because he talked about a girlfriend once a long time ago at the same time he was talking about a wife -- rather poorly I might add).

He has never been a Bishop, and I don't believe that he is a High Priest. His understanding of the temple and its rituals is only minimal, so I doubt that he has been there more than twice, and that is only if he went on a mission and if he got sealed. Maybe, just maybe the two times, but he can't have gone any more because he does not understand what goes on there.

His attitude outside of the forum is exactly what he portrays here because he is not smart enough to dissemble and get away with it all. Shoot, he has never gotten away with it here, has he?

ThomasK wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
No one has ever been disciplined, excommunicated, or any other church measures for not believing or adhering to in the "Adam-God Theory".

If that's what you believe...then that's what you believe. It is unlikely that if they didn't believe, or adhere to any specific doctrine that Brigham Young taught from the pulpit...that they would openly dissent.

Because according to the history of the Danites...members who openly dissented against the orders, teachings, and/or edicts of Brigham Young, might possibly stand to be 'used up'...and the Danites acted under orders.

OK, name names of people that we excommunicated for not believing or adhering to the "Adam-God Theory". You challenged my quote, so let's here it. So what you're also saying is that people were being excommunicated for disagreeing with "theories". What other "theories" was this happening with?

I'm waiting.

And so long as you behave like Kent...you can keep waiting. Or you can discuss this like a rational adult.

It remains to be seen.

At any rate...why do you think Orson Pratt was excommunicated?

For not accepting the Adam-God Theory? Really? I didn't know that. I stand corrected. So when did the Counsil of Priesthood then accept it and the Church ratify it as doctrine?

My reference to Orson Pratt was in regard to your other question.

". So what you're also saying is that people were being excommunicated for disagreeing with "theories". What other "theories" was this happening with?

Orson Pratt was excommunicated because when he returned from a mission, his wife informed him that Joseph Smith had been pestering her to marry him.

Orson took great exception to that...and he had strong words with Joseph. He strongly disagreed with the 'theory' of polygamy.

And he was duly excommunicated. And as soon as he went crawling back to Smith and apologized for arguing with him...his membership and priesthood was restored.

Oh that one. Actually, it was voided. Him and Smith did make up and were as close as ever. I wouldn't charactorize it the way you did.
But we do feel differently about the faith. Interesting enough he become a defender of the "doctrine" of polygamy. Had seven wives himself. I kind of liked his spunk. Kept President Young on his toes. And vice a versa. A skilled writer that Brother Young utilized many times.

Now what the heck was my other question.

Here is what happened regarding Orson Pratt's excommunication.

Orson Pratt was a member of the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles under Joseph Smith. He was ordained to this position on April 26, 1835. He served as a member of the mission of the Twelve Apostles to the British Isles between 1839 and 1841. He contributed to the mission by preaching in Scotland, and producing an early missionary tract, A Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions. This tract contains the earliest known public printing of an account of Joseph Smith's First Vision and also contains material similar to that later published as the 1842 Articles of Faith.

On his return to America in 1841, Pratt found the Church membership in contention over several issues. Rumors and gossip were rife in Nauvoo, Illinois and Pratt found the religious principle of plural marriage difficult to accept. He rebelled against Smith when he found that his wife Sarah Pratt accused Smith of attempting to seduce her. Pratt was disciplined and excommunicated August 20, 1842. Some months later, he reconciled with Smith and requested re-baptism. Pratt was reinstated in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on January 20, 1843. This brief period of disassociation with the church had a long-term consequence for Pratt. When dealing with seniority in the council after the death of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young ruled that if a council member had been disciplined and removed from the council, his seniority was based on the date of readmission. By this ruling, both Apostle Orson Hyde and Pratt were moved down in seniority in June of 1875.(Bergera 1992)

As you see..."Pratt was disciplined and excommunicated August 20, 1842. Some months later, he reconciled with Smith and requested RE-BAPTISM. Pratt was reinstated in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on January 20, 1843."

Smith had attempted to seduce his wife while he was away. He confronted Joseph, and he disagreed pretty vehemently with Smith's ideas of polygamy.

And he was excommunicated for his disagreement. Pretty petty if you ask me.

But you say you like Orson Pratt's spunk? I would have respected his spunk much more had he not gone crawling back, and asked to be re-baptized.

Had he not done a complete turn about and become a staunch supporter and participator in the very practice he reportedly found abhorrent not so very long before.

If I lived in that era, and a leader of my religious faith sent me on a mission...and tried to seduce my wife while I was gone...I'm afraid I would not be willing to leave it with a simple disagreement or even a debate over the principle of polygamy.

Orson Pratt had every right to demand satisfaction from the man who attempted to seduce his wife.

By 1859, only 18 states had outlawed dueling, but it was still practiced in the South and in the West.

I have little respect for a man who decided that membership in the Church under a leader who had abused his trust, not to mention his wife's honor was more important than defending his wife's honor.

But you are welcome to see it your way.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
No one has ever been disciplined, excommunicated, or any other church measures for not believing or adhering to in the "Adam-God Theory".

If that's what you believe...then that's what you believe. It is unlikely that if they didn't believe, or adhere to any specific doctrine that Brigham Young taught from the pulpit...that they would openly dissent.

Because according to the history of the Danites...members who openly dissented against the orders, teachings, and/or edicts of Brigham Young, might possibly stand to be 'used up'...and the Danites acted under orders.

OK, name names of people that we excommunicated for not believing or adhering to the "Adam-God Theory". You challenged my quote, so let's here it. So what you're also saying is that people were being excommunicated for disagreeing with "theories". What other "theories" was this happening with?

I'm waiting.

And so long as you behave like Kent...you can keep waiting. Or you can discuss this like a rational adult.

It remains to be seen.

At any rate...why do you think Orson Pratt was excommunicated?


He's been respectful Jaye, just as you did with Bearyb when he was, accuse him of being evil etc. What a joke you are. Just answer the question. Is acting like me asking for proof of things you and your twin brother Wren say? If so, I'm proud to be like me.

You prove this claim and show where I have ever referred to Bearyb OR Thomas as being evil.

Up until fairly recently, Thomas has remained respectful.

Fairly recently, he's been switching to less respectful tactics and mannerisms.

When an individual says..."OK, name names of people that we excommunicated for not believing or adhering to the "Adam-God Theory". You challenged my quote, so let's here [sic]it!"...this does not indicate respect OR courteous discourse.

In this...he is beginning to act like you do. If he wishes to engage in discussion...I'm happy to do so.

But if he is going to insert little innuendos and begin to behave in a smarmy fashion...then the discussion will take a different course.