Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
WaynesWorld wrote:

But I remember when polygamy was a prerequisite for Celestial exaltation. That has now changed...the root of that doctrine continues to die out and wither. And I'm glad to see that happening.

You must be over 100 then if you remember things taught about Polygamy.

Fact is, that was never taught about Polygamy, that is was essential, maybe it was a test for those it was asked to practice it, which was a small percentage of the church, so how could most of the church not practice it if they believed it was a requirement for salvation? Everyone would have been doing right? Makes no sense, and proves you are wrong that it was taught as an essential thing.

Oh for the love of PETE, Kent. The Mormons never taught that polygamy was essential for salvation...they taught that it was requisite for EXALTATION.

Show your proof.

Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine & Covenants still states that Polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must have multiple wives.

Because Mormons still hold D&C Section 132 as cannon - Mormons still practice "spiritual" polygamy and teach that Polygamy is the only way a Mormon can become a God. Two current Mormon Apostles have more than 1 spiritual wife. Russell M. Nelson On April 6, 2006 married Wendy L. Watson in the temple for "time and all eternity", his second spiritual wife.


Why did I know you anti's would bring up 132 to misinterpret again. The new and everlasting covenant is the Marriage ordinance you idjit. Course how would you know this, you were LDS for only 14 years.

BZZZT!!! WRONG AGAIN KENT.

He was absolutely correct...and the fact of the matter is...even I knew this by the time I was 14 years of age.

Your religious education is severely lacking.

Then why are we not practicing Polygamy still Dar dar? If new and everlasting covenant means Polygamy and not temple marriage, why are we practicing one and not the other? You are an idiot that really has a deranged few of the faith you don't follow anymore.


Here's what my church says about it, not sure where your getting what your saying from, but not my church..

"The covenant of eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation. The Lord revealed through Joseph Smith: "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1–4" LDS.ORG beliefs


Game, set and MATCH

I'll tell you EXACTLY why we're not practicing polygamy today.

Because Wilford Woodruff knew full well that Utah would not achieve statehood...and the Federal Government would continue to harass the Mormons until the practice ceased.

He received that very conveniently timed 'revelation' from God which resulted in the conception of the 1890 Manifesto.

Here is more:

"During his tenure, the church faced a number of legal battles with the United States, primarily over the practice of plural marriage. The church faced a real possibility of being destroyed as a viable legal entity, as it was faced with disfranchisement and federal confiscation of its property, including temples.[4]

Citing revelation, Woodruff issued the 1890 Manifesto which ended the church's official support of plural marriage in the territory of the United States and directed Latter-day Saints to only enter into marriages that are recognized by the laws in the areas in which they reside. He wrote in his diary, "I have arrived at the point in the history of my life as the president of the Church ... where I am under the necessity of acting for the temporal salvation of the Church".[5] Some historians[who?] consider the 1890 Manifesto to be Woodruff's most important contribution to the church.[citation needed]

Despite the Manifesto, historians D. Michael Quinn, B. Carmon Hardy, and Richard S. Van Wagoner have asserted that Woodruff continued to secretly encourage, or at least allow, new plural marriages to be performed in Mexico, Canada, and upon the high seas.[citation needed] The church would not fully renounce the practice of plural marriage until Joseph F. Smith's Second Manifesto of 1904."

So...two previous prophets declared plural marriage to be an eternal principle, to which obedience and adherence to this principle was commanded by God.

And these men swore sacred oaths that they would never disobey or renounce this principle.

But...the fact that the feds were threatening to confiscate every last bit of land, property, and/or buildings including Temples if the polygamy continued...conveniently triggered the Manifesto.

That's not the only time this has happened.

Spencer Kimball's announcement of receiving revelation that blacks would be granted the priesthood was triggered by the fact that Kimball had just been subpoenaed to appear before the Court in a lawsuit against the Church, in which the family of a black boy scout had decided to sue the Mormon Church because their son could not hold a position of leadership in his Boy Scout troop because he did not hold the priesthood.

BAMMO!!!REVELATION RECEIVED...BLACKS CAN NOW HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD. Even though every prophet before him went along with the bigotry that had stemmed from Brigham Young's racist ideas.



Wrong, we're not practicing it because it is not the everlasting covenant mentioned in the D&C 132. As I showed you from the churches beliefs on their webpage. Are you too proud to admit you are wrong about the everlasting covenant being marriage even? Doubt it.

Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:

Show your proof.

Why? You won't when asked.

I do when I have it, how is one supposed to show proof of converstaions they have with people. (as I'm sure your talking about my talking of temple qaulifications for other faiths)

lol Exactly . . . Oh, and thanks for finally admitting you had no proof. Was it really that difficult?

Your delusional sometimes Betz, I, in no way said I have no proof, I said my proof is people I've spoken with IN REAL life, just as in a court of law, there is testimony of eye witness'.

Ahh, back to your ole "when I'm proven wrong, I must call someone a name or question their intelligence." Typical!

Since you brought up the legal process, I'm sure you know that in a court of law, using the testimony of what someone else said is called "hearsay" and is INADMISSIBLE.

Eyewitness testimony is used in a court of law on a daily basis. And is completly admissible, nice try Betz, but your wrong. I have eyewitness testimony I repeated here, it is testimony that is good.

Prove it.

Here ya go lawyer betz

"People sometimes say that a case is "only circumstantial" to mean that the evidence is weak. A strong case, according to this view, includes the testimony of an eyewitness."


I'm getting tired check mating you and Jaye today. Whew.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html

The evidence provided by an eyewitness must be credible and verifiable. Or else it's nothing more than a load of hooey.

Not only that...if an eyewitness makes a claim that he/she heard someone else say that THEY heard a defendant admitting guilt...then the individual he/she claims to have overheard will also be subpoenaed.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
WaynesWorld wrote:

But I remember when polygamy was a prerequisite for Celestial exaltation. That has now changed...the root of that doctrine continues to die out and wither. And I'm glad to see that happening.

You must be over 100 then if you remember things taught about Polygamy.

Fact is, that was never taught about Polygamy, that is was essential, maybe it was a test for those it was asked to practice it, which was a small percentage of the church, so how could most of the church not practice it if they believed it was a requirement for salvation? Everyone would have been doing right? Makes no sense, and proves you are wrong that it was taught as an essential thing.

Oh for the love of PETE, Kent. The Mormons never taught that polygamy was essential for salvation...they taught that it was requisite for EXALTATION.

Show your proof.

Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine & Covenants still states that Polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must have multiple wives.

Because Mormons still hold D&C Section 132 as cannon - Mormons still practice "spiritual" polygamy and teach that Polygamy is the only way a Mormon can become a God. Two current Mormon Apostles have more than 1 spiritual wife. Russell M. Nelson On April 6, 2006 married Wendy L. Watson in the temple for "time and all eternity", his second spiritual wife.


Why did I know you anti's would bring up 132 to misinterpret again. The new and everlasting covenant is the Marriage ordinance you idjit. Course how would you know this, you were LDS for only 14 years.

BZZZT!!! WRONG AGAIN KENT.

He was absolutely correct...and the fact of the matter is...even I knew this by the time I was 14 years of age.

Your religious education is severely lacking.

Then why are we not practicing Polygamy still Dar dar? If new and everlasting covenant means Polygamy and not temple marriage, why are we practicing one and not the other? You are an idiot that really has a deranged few of the faith you don't follow anymore.


Here's what my church says about it, not sure where your getting what your saying from, but not my church..

"The covenant of eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation. The Lord revealed through Joseph Smith: "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1–4" LDS.ORG beliefs


Game, set and MATCH

I'll tell you EXACTLY why we're not practicing polygamy today.

Because Wilford Woodruff knew full well that Utah would not achieve statehood...and the Federal Government would continue to harass the Mormons until the practice ceased.

He received that very conveniently timed 'revelation' from God which resulted in the conception of the 1890 Manifesto.

Here is more:

"During his tenure, the church faced a number of legal battles with the United States, primarily over the practice of plural marriage. The church faced a real possibility of being destroyed as a viable legal entity, as it was faced with disfranchisement and federal confiscation of its property, including temples.[4]

Citing revelation, Woodruff issued the 1890 Manifesto which ended the church's official support of plural marriage in the territory of the United States and directed Latter-day Saints to only enter into marriages that are recognized by the laws in the areas in which they reside. He wrote in his diary, "I have arrived at the point in the history of my life as the president of the Church ... where I am under the necessity of acting for the temporal salvation of the Church".[5] Some historians[who?] consider the 1890 Manifesto to be Woodruff's most important contribution to the church.[citation needed]

Despite the Manifesto, historians D. Michael Quinn, B. Carmon Hardy, and Richard S. Van Wagoner have asserted that Woodruff continued to secretly encourage, or at least allow, new plural marriages to be performed in Mexico, Canada, and upon the high seas.[citation needed] The church would not fully renounce the practice of plural marriage until Joseph F. Smith's Second Manifesto of 1904."

So...two previous prophets declared plural marriage to be an eternal principle, to which obedience and adherence to this principle was commanded by God.

And these men swore sacred oaths that they would never disobey or renounce this principle.

But...the fact that the feds were threatening to confiscate every last bit of land, property, and/or buildings including Temples if the polygamy continued...conveniently triggered the Manifesto.

That's not the only time this has happened.

Spencer Kimball's announcement of receiving revelation that blacks would be granted the priesthood was triggered by the fact that Kimball had just been subpoenaed to appear before the Court in a lawsuit against the Church, in which the family of a black boy scout had decided to sue the Mormon Church because their son could not hold a position of leadership in his Boy Scout troop because he did not hold the priesthood.

BAMMO!!!REVELATION RECEIVED...BLACKS CAN NOW HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD. Even though every prophet before him went along with the bigotry that had stemmed from Brigham Young's racist ideas.



Wrong, we're not practicing it because it is not the everlasting covenant mentioned in the D&C 132. As I showed you from the churches beliefs on their webpage. Are you too proud to admit you are wrong about the everlasting covenant being marriage even? Doubt it.

Wrong. The only reason the Mormons discontinued polygamy was because they stood to lose everything.

And Brigham Young would disagree wholeheartedly with you...as he was the one who stated that the everlasting covenant of marriage was part and parcel with plural marriage.

But we aren't talking about what the Church teaches today. We are talking about what was taught under the leadership of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
WaynesWorld wrote:

But I remember when polygamy was a prerequisite for Celestial exaltation. That has now changed...the root of that doctrine continues to die out and wither. And I'm glad to see that happening.

You must be over 100 then if you remember things taught about Polygamy.

Fact is, that was never taught about Polygamy, that is was essential, maybe it was a test for those it was asked to practice it, which was a small percentage of the church, so how could most of the church not practice it if they believed it was a requirement for salvation? Everyone would have been doing right? Makes no sense, and proves you are wrong that it was taught as an essential thing.

Oh for the love of PETE, Kent. The Mormons never taught that polygamy was essential for salvation...they taught that it was requisite for EXALTATION.

Show your proof.

Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine & Covenants still states that Polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must have multiple wives.

Because Mormons still hold D&C Section 132 as cannon - Mormons still practice "spiritual" polygamy and teach that Polygamy is the only way a Mormon can become a God. Two current Mormon Apostles have more than 1 spiritual wife. Russell M. Nelson On April 6, 2006 married Wendy L. Watson in the temple for "time and all eternity", his second spiritual wife.


Why did I know you anti's would bring up 132 to misinterpret again. The new and everlasting covenant is the Marriage ordinance you idjit. Course how would you know this, you were LDS for only 14 years.

BZZZT!!! WRONG AGAIN KENT.

He was absolutely correct...and the fact of the matter is...even I knew this by the time I was 14 years of age.

Your religious education is severely lacking.

Then why are we not practicing Polygamy still Dar dar? If new and everlasting covenant means Polygamy and not temple marriage, why are we practicing one and not the other? You are an idiot that really has a deranged few of the faith you don't follow anymore.


Here's what my church says about it, not sure where your getting what your saying from, but not my church..

"The covenant of eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation. The Lord revealed through Joseph Smith: "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase" (D&C 131:1–4" LDS.ORG beliefs


Game, set and MATCH

I'll tell you EXACTLY why we're not practicing polygamy today.

Because Wilford Woodruff knew full well that Utah would not achieve statehood...and the Federal Government would continue to harass the Mormons until the practice ceased.

He received that very conveniently timed 'revelation' from God which resulted in the conception of the 1890 Manifesto.

Here is more:

"During his tenure, the church faced a number of legal battles with the United States, primarily over the practice of plural marriage. The church faced a real possibility of being destroyed as a viable legal entity, as it was faced with disfranchisement and federal confiscation of its property, including temples.[4]

Citing revelation, Woodruff issued the 1890 Manifesto which ended the church's official support of plural marriage in the territory of the United States and directed Latter-day Saints to only enter into marriages that are recognized by the laws in the areas in which they reside. He wrote in his diary, "I have arrived at the point in the history of my life as the president of the Church ... where I am under the necessity of acting for the temporal salvation of the Church".[5] Some historians[who?] consider the 1890 Manifesto to be Woodruff's most important contribution to the church.[citation needed]

Despite the Manifesto, historians D. Michael Quinn, B. Carmon Hardy, and Richard S. Van Wagoner have asserted that Woodruff continued to secretly encourage, or at least allow, new plural marriages to be performed in Mexico, Canada, and upon the high seas.[citation needed] The church would not fully renounce the practice of plural marriage until Joseph F. Smith's Second Manifesto of 1904."

So...two previous prophets declared plural marriage to be an eternal principle, to which obedience and adherence to this principle was commanded by God.

And these men swore sacred oaths that they would never disobey or renounce this principle.

But...the fact that the feds were threatening to confiscate every last bit of land, property, and/or buildings including Temples if the polygamy continued...conveniently triggered the Manifesto.

That's not the only time this has happened.

Spencer Kimball's announcement of receiving revelation that blacks would be granted the priesthood was triggered by the fact that Kimball had just been subpoenaed to appear before the Court in a lawsuit against the Church, in which the family of a black boy scout had decided to sue the Mormon Church because their son could not hold a position of leadership in his Boy Scout troop because he did not hold the priesthood.

BAMMO!!!REVELATION RECEIVED...BLACKS CAN NOW HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD. Even though every prophet before him went along with the bigotry that had stemmed from Brigham Young's racist ideas.



Wrong, we're not practicing it because it is not the everlasting covenant mentioned in the D&C 132. As I showed you from the churches beliefs on their webpage. Are you too proud to admit you are wrong about the everlasting covenant being marriage even? Doubt it.

Wrong. The only reason the Mormons discontinued polygamy was because they stood to lose everything.

And Brigham Young would disagree wholeheartedly with you...as he was the one who stated that the everlasting covenant of marriage was part and parcel with plural marriage.

But we aren't talking about what the Church teaches today. We are talking about what was taught under the leadership of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

It is your opinion and that of an apostate that teaches that the church stopped polygamy for anything other than it was a Prophet of Gods revelation.

Show your proof they taught it as essential to go to heaven. Don't cop out with "I've shown it before" tigerlily, you haven't.

Jaye wrote:
Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
WaynesWorld wrote:

But I remember when polygamy was a prerequisite for Celestial exaltation. That has now changed...the root of that doctrine continues to die out and wither. And I'm glad to see that happening.

You must be over 100 then if you remember things taught about Polygamy.

Fact is, that was never taught about Polygamy, that is was essential, maybe it was a test for those it was asked to practice it, which was a small percentage of the church, so how could most of the church not practice it if they believed it was a requirement for salvation? Everyone would have been doing right? Makes no sense, and proves you are wrong that it was taught as an essential thing.

Oh for the love of PETE, Kent. The Mormons never taught that polygamy was essential for salvation...they taught that it was requisite for EXALTATION.

Show your proof.

Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine & Covenants still states that Polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must have multiple wives.

Because Mormons still hold D&C Section 132 as cannon - Mormons still practice "spiritual" polygamy and teach that Polygamy is the only way a Mormon can become a God. Two current Mormon Apostles have more than 1 spiritual wife. Russell M. Nelson On April 6, 2006 married Wendy L. Watson in the temple for "time and all eternity", his second spiritual wife.

The practice of polygamy has never been a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom. In D&C 132, it says to achieve exaltation, you must enter into the "new and everlasting covenant", meaning being sealed (married) in the temple for time and eternity. Polygamy is NOT, NOT, NOT the "new and everlasting covenant." (Sorry, Just Reading. . .I still like your ideas for Mother's Day gifts, though.)

No where in section 132 does it state you must be a polygamist to become a god. Exaltation is NOT determined by how many wives you have. Read the whole section, please. Yes, worthy priesthood holders (men) can be sealed to more than one woman. For example, my step-dad will have two wives. . .his first wife that died, and then my mother. So, there will be plurality of wives in the Celestial Kingdom.

On to Brigham Young saying blacks would never hold the priesthood "in this life". I say those last three words a lot; for example, when I'm asked if I'll ever let my hair go gray, I answer "Not in this life", referring to MY lifetime. Maybe that's what Brigham Young meant.

After reading all the posts in this forum (and it took forever), I have to agree with JLD. Why is it such an issue with everyone outside the church (non-members, former members) what we believe? Why do you care so much?

About the LDS church making a statement about the FLDS debacle. . .The statement has been made. The Church does not practice polygamy; those that do are excommunicated. The Church has no association with the FLDS. The Church is not responsible for their practices, just as the Church is not responsible for what any other religion practices.

I'll address one of your comments.

What Brigham Young was talking about when he taught that blacks would never receive the priesthood in this life...was in reference to this life...our second estate.

Brigham Young was of the opinion that since the blacks had been 'fence-sitters' in the war in heaven...and since they had not been valiant in keeping their first estate (the pre-existance) they would not receive the blessings of the priesthood and temple marriage in their SECOND estate...or their earthly life.

He taught that if they lived worthy lives...they would receive these blessings in their THIRD estate...or in the next world.

And WHY did he teach this? Joseph Smith certainly never did. As a matter of fact...Joseph Smith had already ordained a number of worthy black males to the priesthood.

And as soon as Brigham took the reigns of leadership...he revoked these blessings and revoked the priesthood blessings from the individuals which had received them from Joseph Smith.

But this was not all regarding Brigham's opinion of blacks. He believed that there were varying degrees in the Celestial kingdom...and that the worthy blacks would have their own positions and duties in the Celestial kingdom...which basically amounted to servitude to the white Saints.

You must understand something about Brigham Young. While he had instructed that worthy white priesthood holding males would possibly be required to take Lamanite women as wives, so that their posterity might become white and delightsome...as per prophecy.

However...when it came to the 'Negro race'...he was of an entirely different opinion.

He taught, from the pulpit, that the fate of any white man or woman who intermarried with Negroes, and mingled their blood and seed with Negroes...ought to be nothing less than being put to death.

I'm going to call you on one word, Jaye. . .OPINION. All the things you wrote above from Brigham Young weren't his opinion. During his time, these were revelations. Bruce R. McConkie said, speaking of the "negro" situation,(and I know a lot of members don't like to quote him), ". . .this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice. . ." Thankfully, we have modern-day revelation. For those of you who don't know what that is, we believe that Heavenly Father still speaks to his prophet(s). Doctrines of the Church don't change on a whim. . ."line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. . .".2 Nephi 28.

And, again thankfully, modern-day revelation also applies to the practice, or lack thereof, of polygamy.

Jaye, you don't go to church to take the sacrament?