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Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Girl Raised in the South wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
WaynesWorld wrote:
But I remember when polygamy was a prerequisite for Celestial exaltation. That has now changed...the root of that doctrine continues to die out and wither. And I'm glad to see that happening.
You must be over 100 then if you remember things taught about Polygamy.
Fact is, that was never taught about Polygamy, that is was essential, maybe it was a test for those it was asked to practice it, which was a small percentage of the church, so how could most of the church not practice it if they believed it was a requirement for salvation? Everyone would have been doing right? Makes no sense, and proves you are wrong that it was taught as an essential thing.
Oh for the love of PETE, Kent. The Mormons never taught that polygamy was essential for salvation...they taught that it was requisite for EXALTATION.
Show your proof.
Section 132 of the LDS Doctrine & Covenants still states that Polygamy is the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and in order to get into the Celestial Kingdom, Mormons must have multiple wives.
Because Mormons still hold D&C Section 132 as cannon - Mormons still practice "spiritual" polygamy and teach that Polygamy is the only way a Mormon can become a God. Two current Mormon Apostles have more than 1 spiritual wife. Russell M. Nelson On April 6, 2006 married Wendy L. Watson in the temple for "time and all eternity", his second spiritual wife.
The practice of polygamy has never been a requirement to enter the Celestial Kingdom. In D&C 132, it says to achieve exaltation, you must enter into the "new and everlasting covenant", meaning being sealed (married) in the temple for time and eternity. Polygamy is NOT, NOT, NOT the "new and everlasting covenant." (Sorry, Just Reading. . .I still like your ideas for Mother's Day gifts, though.)
No where in section 132 does it state you must be a polygamist to become a god. Exaltation is NOT determined by how many wives you have. Read the whole section, please. Yes, worthy priesthood holders (men) can be sealed to more than one woman. For example, my step-dad will have two wives. . .his first wife that died, and then my mother. So, there will be plurality of wives in the Celestial Kingdom.
On to Brigham Young saying blacks would never hold the priesthood "in this life". I say those last three words a lot; for example, when I'm asked if I'll ever let my hair go gray, I answer "Not in this life", referring to MY lifetime. Maybe that's what Brigham Young meant.
After reading all the posts in this forum (and it took forever), I have to agree with JLD. Why is it such an issue with everyone outside the church (non-members, former members) what we believe? Why do you care so much?
About the LDS church making a statement about the FLDS debacle. . .The statement has been made. The Church does not practice polygamy; those that do are excommunicated. The Church has no association with the FLDS. The Church is not responsible for their practices, just as the Church is not responsible for what any other religion practices.
I'll address one of your comments.
What Brigham Young was talking about when he taught that blacks would never receive the priesthood in this life...was in reference to this life...our second estate.
Brigham Young was of the opinion that since the blacks had been 'fence-sitters' in the war in heaven...and since they had not been valiant in keeping their first estate (the pre-existance) they would not receive the blessings of the priesthood and temple marriage in their SECOND estate...or their earthly life.
He taught that if they lived worthy lives...they would receive these blessings in their THIRD estate...or in the next world.
And WHY did he teach this? Joseph Smith certainly never did. As a matter of fact...Joseph Smith had already ordained a number of worthy black males to the priesthood.
And as soon as Brigham took the reigns of leadership...he revoked these blessings and revoked the priesthood blessings from the individuals which had received them from Joseph Smith.
But this was not all regarding Brigham's opinion of blacks. He believed that there were varying degrees in the Celestial kingdom...and that the worthy blacks would have their own positions and duties in the Celestial kingdom...which basically amounted to servitude to the white Saints.
You must understand something about Brigham Young. While he had instructed that worthy white priesthood holding males would possibly be required to take Lamanite women as wives, so that their posterity might become white and delightsome...as per prophecy.
However...when it came to the 'Negro race'...he was of an entirely different opinion.
He taught, from the pulpit, that the fate of any white man or woman who intermarried with Negroes, and mingled their blood and seed with Negroes...ought to be nothing less than being put to death.
I'm going to call you on one word, Jaye. . .OPINION. All the things you wrote above from Brigham Young weren't his opinion. During his time, these were revelations. Bruce R. McConkie said, speaking of the "negro" situation,(and I know a lot of members don't like to quote him), ". . .this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice. . ." Thankfully, we have modern-day revelation. For those of you who don't know what that is, we believe that Heavenly Father still speaks to his prophet(s). Doctrines of the Church don't change on a whim. . ."line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. . .".2 Nephi 28.
And, again thankfully, modern-day revelation also applies to the practice, or lack thereof, of polygamy.
As far as I'm concerned...a number of things that Brigham Young taught from the pulpit and fully expected his followers to accept as 'revelation' were nothing more than his opinions, and based upon his own biases.
As far as 'eternal laws of justice'...do you suppose that God held the black race to different standards than He held every other race?
Our Second Article of faith states:
"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions.'
Some believe that the mark of Cain was black skin.
If this were the case...and if this is why blacks were denied the priesthood for so very long...why is it that they were being punished for Cain's transgression?
Some believe that blacks were denied the blessings of the priesthood because they were 'less than valiant' in their First Estate...or as some like to say...they were 'fence-sitters during the war in heaven'.
I don't believe either of these theories to be the case.
And apparently neither did Joseph Smith. Because he ordained a number of worthy black males to the priesthood before he was murdered...and Brigham Young revoked their priesthood soon after taking control of the Church.
Some like to use the term 'continuing revelation' to excuse the fact that so many things which were considered to be revealed doctrine in the early church changed so quickly.
This makes God appear to be an 'on again-off again' kind of Deity.
Yet Section 3 of the D&C states:
"The works and the designs and the purposes of God cannot be frustrated, neither can they come to naught.
For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth He turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth He vary from that which He hath said, therefore His paths are straight, and His course is one eternal round."
So...God selects a prophet, or a mouthpiece to dictate God's will to God's people.
The first LDS Prophet brings forth revelation regarding plurality of wives as a doctrine and a principle. He also ordains black men to the priesthood.
The second LDS Prophet adheres to the principle of polygamy...but he claims revelation that the Negro race is not worthy of receiving the priesthood...and that they will NEVER receive the priesthood IN THIS THEIR SECOND ESTATE.
And he revokes the blessings of the priesthood on those worthy black males his predecessor had granted them.
Speech by Gov. Young in Joint Session of the Legislature.
Feb. 5th 1852 giving his views on slavery.
I rise to make a few remarks. The Items before the house I do not understand.
The principle of slavery I understand, at least I have self confidence enough, and confidence enough in God to believe I do. I believe still further that a great many others understand it as I do. A great portion of this community have been instructed, and have applied their minds to it, and as far as they have, they agree precisely in the principles of slavery. My remarks in the first place will be upon the cause of the introduction of slavery. Long ago mama Eve our good old mother Eve partook of the forbidden fruit and this made a slave of her. Adam hated very much to have her taken out of the garden of Eden, and now our old daddy says I believe I will eat of the fruit and become a slave too. This was the first introduction of slavery upon this earth; and there has been not a son or daughter of Adam from that day to this but what where slaves in the true sense of the word.
That slavery will continue, until there is a people raised up upon the face of the earth who will contend for righteous principles, who will not only believe in but operate, with every power and faculty given to them to help to establish the kingdom of God, to overcome the devil, and drive him from the earth, then will this curse be removed. This was the starting point of slavery. Again after Adam, and Eve had partook of the curse, we find they had two sons Cain and Able, but which was the oldest I cannot positively say; but this I know, Cain was given more to evil practices than Abel, but whether he was the oldest or not matters not to me. Adam was commanded to sacrifice, and offer up his offerings to God, that placed him into the garden of Eden. Through the faith and obedience of Able to his heavenly father, Cain became jealous of him, and he laid a plan to obtain all his flocks; for through his perfect obedience to father he obtained more blessings than Cain; consequently he took it into his heart to put able able of this mortal existence. after the deed was done, the Lord inquired to able, and made Caine own what he had done with him. Now says the grand father I will not destroy the seed of Michael and his wife; and Cain I will not kill you, nor suffer any one to kill you, but I will put a mark upon you. What is that mark? you will see it on the countenance of every African you ever did see upon the face of the earth, or ever will see. Now I tell you what I know; when the mark was put upon Cain, Abel's children was in all probability young; the Lord told Cain that he should not receive the blessings of the priesthood nor his seed, until the last of the posterity of Able had received the priesthood, until the redemption of the earth. If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called Negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the priesthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the residue of the posterity of Michal and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the priesthood, until the times of the restitution shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from Michaels seed. Then Cain's seed will be had in remembrance, and the time come when that curse should be wiped off.
Now then in the kingdom of God on the earth, a man who has has the African blood in him cannot hold one jot nor tittle of priesthood; Why? because they are the true eternal principals the Lord Almighty has ordained, and who can help it, men cannot. the angels cannot, and all the powers of earth and hell cannot take it off, but thus saith the Eternal I am, what I am, I take it off at my pleasure, and not one particle of power can that posterity of Cain have, until the time comes the says he will have it taken away. That time will come when they will have the privilege of all we have the privilege of and more. In the kingdom of God on the earth the Africans cannot hold one particle of power in Government. The the subjects, the rightful servants of the residue of the children of Adam, and the residue of the children through the benign influence of the Spirit of the Lord have the privilege of seeing to the posterity of Cain; inasmuch as it is the Lords will they should receive the spirit of God by Baptism and that is the end of their privilege; and there is not power on earth to give them any more power.
You talk of the dark skin, I never saw a white man on earth. I have seen persons who's hair came pretty nigh being white, but to talk about white skins it is something entirely unknown, though some skins are fairer than others; look at the black eye and the jet black hair, we often see upon men and women who are called white, there is no such things as white folks. We are the children of Adam, who receive the blessings, and that is enough for us if we are not quite white.
But let me tell you further. Let my seed mingle with the seed of Cain, that brings the curse upon me, and upon my generations, -- we will reap the same rewards with Cain.
In the priesthood I will tell you what it will do. Where the children of God to mingle there seed with the seed of Cain it would not only bring the curse of being deprived of the power of the priesthood upon themselves but they entail it upon their children after them, and they cannot get rid of it. If a man in an unguarded moment should commit such a transgression, if he would walk up and say cut off my head, and kill man woman and child it would do a great deal towards atoning for the sin. Would this be to curse them? no it would be a blessing to them. -- it would do them good that they might be saved with their Bren. A man would shudder should they here us take about killing folk, but it is one of the greatest blessings to some to kill them, although the true principles of it are not understood. [ Reference to Blood Atonement.]
I will had one thing more. It is not in the power of a man on the face of the earth to take more life than he can give, that is a proper son of Adam. How many times I have heard it said, and how many times has it been reiterated in my ears, and in yours, that to take a life, is to take what you cannot give; This is perfect nonsense; What do I do by taking a mans head off after he is condemned by the Law? I put an end to the existence of the mortal tabernacle; but the life still remains. the body and the spirit is only separated, this is all that can be done by any mortal man upon the face of the earth.
Can I give that life? I can, I can make as good tabernacles as any other man, if you do not believe it go and look at my children, therefore that saying is nonsense. We form the tabernacle for the eternal spirit or life that comes from God. We can only put an end to the existence of that tabernacle, and this is the principle of sacrifice.
What was the cause of the ancients drawing up hundreds and thousands of Bullocks, and Heifers, and Lambs, and doves, and almost every other creature around them, of which they took the best and the fattest, and offered them up as sacrifices unto the Lord. Was it not for the remission of the sins of the people. We read also in the new Testament that a man was sacrificed for the sins of the people. If he had not shed that blood which was given to him in the organization of his body or Tabernacle, you and I could have had no remission of sins. It is the greatest blessing that could come to some men to shed their blood on the ground, and let it come up before the Lord as an atonement. You nor I cannot take any more life than we can give.
Again to the subject before us; as to The men bearing rule; not one of the children of old Cain, have one particle of right to bear Rule in Government affairs from first to last, they have no business there. this privilege was taken from them by there own transgressions, and I cannot help it; and should you or I bear rule we ought to do it with dignity and honor before God.
I am as much opposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the present acceptation or usage of the term, it is abused. I am opposed to abusing that which God has decreed, to take, a blessing, and make a curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants, but those they serve should use them with all the heart and feeling, as they would use their own children, and their compassion should reach over them, and round about them, and treat them as kindly, and with that humane feeling necessary to be shown to mortal beings of the human species. Under these circumstances there blessings in life are greater in proportion than those who have to provide the bread and dinner for them
We know there is a portion of inhabitants of the earth who dwell in Asia that are Negroes, and said to be Jews. The blood of Judah has not only mingled almost with all nations, but also with the blood of Cain, and they have mingled there seeds together; These Negro Jews may keep up all the outer ordinances of the Jewish religion, they may have there sacrifices, and they may perform all the religious ceremonies any people on earth could perform, but let me tell you, that the day they consented to mingle their seed with Canaan, the priesthood was taken away from Judah, and that portion of Judah's seed will never get any rule, or blessings of the priesthood until Cain gets it. Let this Church which is called the kingdom of God on the earth; we will summon the first presidency, the twelve, the high counsel, the Bishopric, and all the elders of Israel, suppose we summon them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings God has given to us. On that very day, and hour we should do so, the priesthood is taken from this Church and kingdom and God leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain the Church must go to destruction, -- we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the priesthood until that curse be removed.
Therefore I will not consent for one moment to have an African dictate me or any Bren. with regard to Church or State Government. I may vary in my veiws from others, and they may think I am foolish in the things I have spoken, and think that they know more than I do, but I know I know more than they do. If the Africans cannot bear rule in the Church of God, what business have they to bear rule in the State and Government affairs of this Territory or any others?
I the Government affairs of States and Territories and kingdoms by right God should Govern. he should rule over nations, and control kings. If we suffer the Devil to rule over us we shall not accomplish any good. I want the Lord to rule, and be our Governor and and dictator, and we are the boys to execute. I shall not consent for a moment to give way to a Gentile Spirit of contention, which is the cause of angry -------- Difference to the alienations of every Good feeling. It is for you and I to take a course, to bind our feelings together in an everlasting bond of union inasmuch as we love the Lord, which we ought to do more than selves. Consequently I will not consent for a moment to have the Children of Cain rule me nor my Bren. No, it is not right.
But say some, is there any thing of this kind in the Constitution, the U.S. has given us? If you will allow me the privilege telling right out, it is none of their damned business what we do or say here. What we do it is for them to sanction, and then for us to say what we like about it. It is written right out in the constitution, "that every free white male inhabitant above the age of twenty one years" &c. My mind is the same to day as when we where pouring over that constitution; any light upon the subject is the same, my judgment is the same, only a little more so. Perhaps I have said enough upon this subject. I have given you the true principles and doctrine. No man can vote for me or my Bren. in this Territory who has not the privilege of acting in Church affairs. Every man, and woman, and Child in this Territory are Citizens; to say the contrary is all nonsense to me. The Indians are Citizens, the Africans are Citizens, and the Jews than come from Asia, that are almost entirely of the blood of Cain, It is our duty to take care of them, and administer to them in all the acts of humanity, and kindness, they shall have the right of Citizenship, but shall not have the right to dictate in Church and State matters. The abolitionists of the east, have carried them, and their whole argument is calculated to darken Counsel, as it was here yesterday. As for our bills passing here, we may lay the foundation for what? for men to come here from Africa or else where; by hundreds of thousands. When these men come here from the Islands, are they going to hold offices in Government No. It is for men who understand the knowledge of Government affairs to hold such offices, and on the other make provisions for them to plow, and to reap, and enjoy all that human beings can enjoy, and we protect them in it. Do we know how to alleviate the condition of these people? we do. Suppose that five thousands of them come from the pacific Islands, and ten or fifteen thousands from Japan, or from China, not one soul of them would know how to vote for a Government officer, they therefore ought not in the first thing have anything to do in Government affairs.
What the Gentiles are doing we are consenting to do. What we are trying to do to day is to make the Negro equal with us in all our privilege. My voice shall be against all the day long. I shall not consent for one moment I will will call them a counsel. I say I will not consent for one moment for you to lay a plan to bring a curse upon this people. I shall not be while I am here."
(The words of Brigham Young, addressed to the Joint Session of the Legislature, Feb. 5th, 1852, regarding Negroes, their status, their limitations, and also regarding Blood Atonement.)
This man led the Mormons for what...30 years? I shudder to think of the number of harmful and false doctrines he taught in the course of 30 years.
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He's out there like a black hole in space.