Wren wrote:
Dubbs: This contradict's LDS doctine though. As we believe the Prophet holds all the Keys as the Prophet, when he dies they are passed to the twelve, who choose a new Prophet, so if Brigham was not supposed to be a Godly chosen Prophet as you are saying, then he didn't hold the Keys, thus non of the other PRophets after him do. Just can't be if your claim is true.

Dubbs contradicts LDS doctrine in his statement above. The surviving Melchezidek priesthood holder alive in the world can recreate all the necessary keys, because the power is not in the keys, but because the priesthood is the power.

Dubbs does not even know his own ecclesiastical dogma.

Oh...BRAVO!!!

Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
I want to state that Brigham Young's teachings concerning Blacks, in my opinion, was wrong. I do not know why the Priesthood was withheld. It has been restored, I sustain this. Any other statements that Brigham Young made concerning Blacks I consider not to be of God and I condemn them. That does not mean that I do not sustain him as a Prophet of God.

In the Bible...it is written that a man may be known by his words and his actions.

Jesus said..."Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

So...is it possible that a man who has spoken such hateful and bigoted words regarding our black brothers and sisters can still be considered to be the mouthpiece of the Lord?

The Lord also said..."Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that worketh iniquity."

I'm sorry Thomas...I disagree with you on this point. For one thing...I don't believe that Brigham Young was chosen by God to lead the Church...although the perilous times called for a strong leader...and he was certainly a strong man...a strong willed man...and a man who brooked no argument.

I do not believe that God would select a man who's heart was filled with such hatred and bigotry for his black brothers and sisters.

Especially since Joseph Smith had already been ordaining worthy black men to the priesthood for some time before his death.

And if the founder of the faith, a man who was said to see God the Father, and the Son face to face...and said to receive the priesthood directly from Peter, James and John, had not been informed that the blacks were not worthy to receive the priesthood in their mortal life...I do not believe that God ever instructed Brigham Young to deny it to them.

For me...this places his status as prophet in doubt.

As does his teaching that Christ's Atonement was not sufficient to save sinners...and that their OWN blood must also be shed.

That contradicts everything that Jesus taught...and that the Christian faith believes.


So what are you saying Jaye, if Brigham Young wasn't chosen by God, does that not make every Prophet after him to be in direct line of Authority apostate also?

Not necessarily. It would have to depend upon how closely each man adhered to Christian principles...by their words, and their deeds.

This contradict's LDS doctine though Jay. As we believe the Prophet holds all the Keys as the Prophet, when he dies they are passed to the twelve, who choose a new Prophet, so if Brigham was not supposed to be a Godly chosen Prophet as you are saying, then he didn't hold the Keys, thus none of the other Prophets after him do. Just can't be if your claim is true. The church would not have proper authority, which is what I think you believe but won't say.

According to this religious organization...all of the keys are held by the Prophet.

But does this mean that the Prophet continues to hold these keys even when he is not worthy to do so?

Many are called...but few are chosen.

The Lord said...'Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

Many will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them...I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity!'

IMPO...whether a man is worthy to hold these keys depends solely upon his words and his works.

And as human beings are prone to errors...it is entirely possible that there were a number of men who were mistakenly set up as prophet, seer and revelator within the LDS faith.

In Brigham Young's case...this procedure had not been implemented...as nobody had expected Joseph Smith to die without instructing the Church as to the proper procedure for succession to leadership.

And in the case of Young's successor...and his, and his...the procedure was implemented in order of seniority.


But that's the point, if Brigham *(as you say) lost the keys through apostacy, then wouldn't that make those after him also left without Keys?

Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs: This contradict's LDS doctine though. As we believe the Prophet holds all the Keys as the Prophet, when he dies they are passed to the twelve, who choose a new Prophet, so if Brigham was not supposed to be a Godly chosen Prophet as you are saying, then he didn't hold the Keys, thus non of the other PRophets after him do. Just can't be if your claim is true.

Dubbs contradicts LDS doctrine in his statement above. The surviving Melchezidek priesthood holder alive in the world can recreate all the necessary keys, because the power is not in the keys, but because the priesthood is the power.

Dubbs does not even know his own ecclesiastical dogma.



"The surviving melchezidke priesthood holder" ???

So any Melchezidike preisthood holder can recreate keys?

You have some proof of this claim?

It's in your own doctrine Kent. Any worthy holder of the MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood can receive the keys and assume leadership.

Say there was, Lord forbid, a natural disaster, such as a major earthquake in SLC while the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the 12 and all the way down the line were meeting...and every last man perished in Church Headquarters.

Any worthy holder of the MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood who survived the disaster could receive the keys and assume leadership.

Wren is correct...you DON'T know your own ecclesiastical dogma.

Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs: This contradict's LDS doctine though. As we believe the Prophet holds all the Keys as the Prophet, when he dies they are passed to the twelve, who choose a new Prophet, so if Brigham was not supposed to be a Godly chosen Prophet as you are saying, then he didn't hold the Keys, thus non of the other PRophets after him do. Just can't be if your claim is true.

Dubbs contradicts LDS doctrine in his statement above. The surviving Melchezidek priesthood holder alive in the world can recreate all the necessary keys, because the power is not in the keys, but because the priesthood is the power.

Dubbs does not even know his own ecclesiastical dogma.



"The surviving melchezidke priesthood holder" ???

So any Melchezidike preisthood holder can recreate keys?

You have some proof of this claim?

It's in your own doctrine Kent. Any worthy holder of the MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood can receive the keys and assume leadership.


Not the way it works cliffy, the way it works is when the Prophet dies, his keys are past to the twelve who act as Prophet for the church, holding the keys until they choose the next Prophet through revelation, then the Keys as Prophet seer, and revelator are given to that Prophet from the twelve.

Wren wrote:
Dubbs: "The surviving melchezidke priesthood holder" ???

So any Melchezidike preisthood holder can recreate keys? You have some proof of this claim?
====

Notice how Dubbs changes "surviving" to "any". That changes the context completely of what I wrote.

Admit what you did, Dubbs, then we can talk about this.

But the truth remains...if every last one of the First Presidency on down the line perished during a natural disaster while meeting at Church Headquarters...any worthy MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood holder could receive the keys and assume leadership.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
I want to state that Brigham Young's teachings concerning Blacks, in my opinion, was wrong. I do not know why the Priesthood was withheld. It has been restored, I sustain this. Any other statements that Brigham Young made concerning Blacks I consider not to be of God and I condemn them. That does not mean that I do not sustain him as a Prophet of God.

In the Bible...it is written that a man may be known by his words and his actions.

Jesus said..."Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

So...is it possible that a man who has spoken such hateful and bigoted words regarding our black brothers and sisters can still be considered to be the mouthpiece of the Lord?

The Lord also said..."Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that worketh iniquity."

I'm sorry Thomas...I disagree with you on this point. For one thing...I don't believe that Brigham Young was chosen by God to lead the Church...although the perilous times called for a strong leader...and he was certainly a strong man...a strong willed man...and a man who brooked no argument.

I do not believe that God would select a man who's heart was filled with such hatred and bigotry for his black brothers and sisters.

Especially since Joseph Smith had already been ordaining worthy black men to the priesthood for some time before his death.

And if the founder of the faith, a man who was said to see God the Father, and the Son face to face...and said to receive the priesthood directly from Peter, James and John, had not been informed that the blacks were not worthy to receive the priesthood in their mortal life...I do not believe that God ever instructed Brigham Young to deny it to them.

For me...this places his status as prophet in doubt.

As does his teaching that Christ's Atonement was not sufficient to save sinners...and that their OWN blood must also be shed.

That contradicts everything that Jesus taught...and that the Christian faith believes.


So what are you saying Jaye, if Brigham Young wasn't chosen by God, does that not make every Prophet after him to be in direct line of Authority apostate also?

Not necessarily. It would have to depend upon how closely each man adhered to Christian principles...by their words, and their deeds.

This contradict's LDS doctine though Jay. As we believe the Prophet holds all the Keys as the Prophet, when he dies they are passed to the twelve, who choose a new Prophet, so if Brigham was not supposed to be a Godly chosen Prophet as you are saying, then he didn't hold the Keys, thus none of the other Prophets after him do. Just can't be if your claim is true. The church would not have proper authority, which is what I think you believe but won't say.

According to this religious organization...all of the keys are held by the Prophet.

But does this mean that the Prophet continues to hold these keys even when he is not worthy to do so?

Many are called...but few are chosen.

The Lord said...'Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father, which is in heaven.

Many will say unto Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them...I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity!'

IMPO...whether a man is worthy to hold these keys depends solely upon his words and his works.

And as human beings are prone to errors...it is entirely possible that there were a number of men who were mistakenly set up as prophet, seer and revelator within the LDS faith.

In Brigham Young's case...this procedure had not been implemented...as nobody had expected Joseph Smith to die without instructing the Church as to the proper procedure for succession to leadership.

And in the case of Young's successor...and his, and his...the procedure was implemented in order of seniority.


But that's the point, if Brigham *(as you say) lost the keys through apostacy, then wouldn't that make those after him also left without Keys?

Not so long as there remained a worthy holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood to receive the keys.

As the Lord restored the keys to Joseph Smith...according to the tale...he could also restore the keys to another.