Percy Wetmore said:

"Yea, you know more than the current Prophets is what your saying, pretty arrogant, Pride goeth before the fall. Heed it Jaye.


Fact is, if your wine is fermented with Alchohol, it is breaking WOW, you can't deny this. Pure wine is interpreted as grape Juice, you don't use this, you use fermented, you are breaking WOW."

To which, I...Jaye reply:

I would venture to say that the current PROPHET may know more about certain things than I do...while I would also venture to say that I know more about certain things than the current Prophet does.

The PROPHET(S) is(are) certainly welcome to give counsel to the members of the faith regarding his(their) personal opinions. This is something that ALL the Prophets have done.

And as I deem their words to be wise, and their advice to be scripturally sound, and their counsel to be applicable to my own life...I have no problem heeding their words of opinion, as well as their doctrinal teachings.

But where I see that their words are only opinion, and not based upon solid doctrine...I exercise my right to free agency and free will...and the gift of discernment which our Father has gifted His children with...to decide whether I will heed them or not.

2. My wine is made in the manner in which it was made in the days of Jesus.

It is fermented, just as the wine which was made in the days of Jesus was fermented...and just as it was made by the members of the Mormon Church following the direction of Joseph Smith based upon that which he said was revealed to him by the Lord.

And since there is NO doctrine within the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrine and Covenants forbidding the use of fermented wine for Sacramental purposes...and indeed these books all INSTRUCT the use of wine for Sacramental purposes...then wine is what I use when my small vinyard of 3 vines can supply enough grapes for a small amount of new-made wine.

Ergo...my use of homemade wine for Sacrament is NOT against the Word of Wisdom at all.

3. The scriptures which you have posted regarding wine and strong drink have one thing in common.

They warn against excess.

A wine bibber, as mentioned in the Bible, was a drunkard. A man given to excess in drinking his wine until he was passed out in drunkenness.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of being a wine bibber, or a drunkard...as well as a glutton...because they saw him sitting at table with tax collectors and sinners.

Was He a glutton? No. He ate to sustain life, just as every mortal man must do.

Was he a drunkard? No. He drank wine at table, with meals, and for social gatherings and celebrations... just as every other man did in His time. And He also turned water into wine at a wedding celebration.

Joseph Smith also enjoyed drinking wine for celebratory purposes...and at the dinner table, and at meetings with his apostles, and even in the temple in Kirkland as well from accounts by various apostles.

I use my homemade wine only for Sacramental purposes. If it is not available, as it has not been since last fall...I use organic grape juice instead.

I do not drink it by the glassful. I do not drink it with dinner, or after dinner, or to celebrate any occasion other than Sacrament...and then only by the same little paper cup which the LDS Church uses each Sunday for Sacrament.

You have no cause to gainsay me Percy. You have no cause to accuse me of wrongdoing.

Especially when you have long excused Joseph Smith for failing to heed the Lord's Word of Wisdom to the absolute letter...(as the current leaders of the Church have interpreted it to be.)

You excuse him because he was human, and nobody ever said he was perfect or infallible.

And at the same time you attack and accuse me for following the instructions regarding the use of newly made and pure wine found within Sections 27 and 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

In other words...you hold ME to higher standards than you would hold a man who claimed to commune face to face with the Most High.

Get over it Percy. And while you're at it...get over yourself.

Jaye wrote:
Percy Wetmore said:

"Yea, you know more than the current Prophets is what your saying, pretty arrogant, Pride goeth before the fall. Heed it Jaye.


Fact is, if your wine is fermented with Alchohol, it is breaking WOW, you can't deny this. Pure wine is interpreted as grape Juice, you don't use this, you use fermented, you are breaking WOW."

To which, I...Jaye reply:

I would venture to say that the current PROPHET may know more about certain things than I do...while I would also venture to say that I know more about certain things than the current Prophet does.

The PROPHET(S) is(are) certainly welcome to give counsel to the members of the faith regarding his(their) personal opinions. This is something that ALL the Prophets have done.

And as I deem their words to be wise, and their advice to be scripturally sound, and their counsel to be applicable to my own life...I have no problem heeding their words of opinion, as well as their doctrinal teachings.

But where I see that their words are only opinion, and not based upon solid doctrine...I exercise my right to free agency and free will...and the gift of discernment which our Father has gifted His children with...to decide whether I will heed them or not.

2. My wine is made in the manner in which it was made in the days of Jesus.

It is fermented, just as the wine which was made in the days of Jesus was fermented...and just as it was made by the members of the Mormon Church following the direction of Joseph Smith based upon that which he said was revealed to him by the Lord.

And since there is NO doctrine within the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrine and Covenants forbidding the use of fermented wine for Sacramental purposes...and indeed these books all INSTRUCT the use of wine for Sacramental purposes...then wine is what I use when my small vinyard of 3 vines can supply enough grapes for a small amount of new-made wine.

Ergo...my use of homemade wine for Sacrament is NOT against the Word of Wisdom at all.

3. The scriptures which you have posted regarding wine and strong drink have one thing in common.

They warn against excess.

A wine bibber, as mentioned in the Bible, was a drunkard. A man given to excess in drinking his wine until he was passed out in drunkenness.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of being a wine bibber, or a drunkard...as well as a glutton...because they saw him sitting at table with tax collectors and sinners.

Was He a glutton? No. He ate to sustain life, just as every mortal man must do.

Was he a drunkard? No. He drank wine at table, with meals, and for social gatherings and celebrations... just as every other man did in His time. And He also turned water into wine at a wedding celebration.

Joseph Smith also enjoyed drinking wine for celebratory purposes...and at the dinner table, and at meetings with his apostles, and even in the temple in Kirkland as well from accounts by various apostles.

I use my homemade wine only for Sacramental purposes. If it is not available, as it has not been since last fall...I use organic grape juice instead.

I do not drink it by the glassful. I do not drink it with dinner, or after dinner, or to celebrate any occasion other than Sacrament...and then only by the same little paper cup which the LDS Church uses each Sunday for Sacrament.

You have no cause to gainsay me Percy. You have no cause to accuse me of wrongdoing.

Especially when you have long excused Joseph Smith for failing to heed the Lord's Word of Wisdom to the absolute letter...(as the current leaders of the Church have interpreted it to be.)

You excuse him because he was human, and nobody ever said he was perfect or infallible.

And at the same time you attack and accuse me for following the instructions regarding the use of newly made and pure wine found within Sections 27 and 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

In other words...you hold ME to higher standards than you would hold a man who claimed to commune face to face with the Most High.

Get over it Percy. And while you're at it...get over yourself.


Get over it Percy. And while you're at it...get over yourself.

Your asking a bit much of old Percy aren't you Jaye?

KitKat wrote:
Dubbs Kitkats favorite wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Dubbs Kitkats favorite wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Interesting comment.

if you know our doctrine it is clear. Both the BofM, articles of faith and the Prophets teachings all concur with my thought process on this topic. Deal with it."

Well...using the same line of logic...the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the teachings of the Prophet and founder of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith, AND the Bible all concur with my thought process and beliefs regarding the use of homemade wine for Sacrament.

Oh geez, broken record.

Blah blah blah justifiction, blah blah blah 12 year old throwing a rebellious fit blah blah


Not only whiny justification, also Incorrect information.

Alchol certainly is against WOW, your wine have alchohol Jaye? (cue nyquil speech, no Jaye, I don't drink it)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, Lev. 10: 9

Wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging Prov 20:1

Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is
made new among you (D&C 27:3–4).
The “pure wine” in Doctrine and Covenants 89:6
is understood to mean new or unfermented grape
juice, since the Word of Wisdom declares
unequivocally against the internal use of alcohol in
any form.
This interpretation is reinforced by the fact that
. . . water was early in the history of the Church
substituted for wine, for sacramental purposes. The revelation reads:

For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not
what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye
partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with
an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the
Father my body which was laid down for you, and
my blood which was shed for the remission of your
sins. [D&C 27:2]. (Widtsoe, Word of Wisdom,
pp. 60–61.)


Percy Wetmore Check this out. It really blows your word of wisdom out of the water.


The next time you're offered a choice between Earl Grey and green tea, you might want to go green.

A new study shows that the beverage, which is more popular in Eastern cultures, can protect heart arteries by keeping them flexible and relaxed, and therefore better able to withstand the ups and downs of constant changes in blood pressure. Led by Dr. Nikolaos Alexopoulos of Athens Medical School in Greece, the researchers found that among 14 subjects, those who drank green tea showed greater dilation of their heart arteries on ultrasound 30 min. later than those drinking either diluted caffeine or hot water. That's because, the scientists speculate, green tea works on the lining of blood vessels, helping cells there to secrete the substances needed to relax the vessels and allow blood to flow more freely. It's the flavonoids in the tea, which work as antioxidants and help prevent inflammation in body tissue, that keep the vessels pliable. These substances may also protect against the formation of clots, which are the primary cause of heart attacks. "We found very promptly [that] after drinking green tea, there was a protective effect on the endothelium," says Dr. Charalambos Vlachopoulos, a cardiologist and one of the authors of the study.

All it took, says Vlachopoulos, was 6 g of green tea, which amounts to 3 to 4 cups. To make sure the dilation effect was not due to the small amounts of caffeine found in green tea, the group compared the arterial sizes in the green-tea drinkers with those consuming a diluted caffeine beverage and found no change in arterial size in the caffeine drinkers. Even more intriguing, the beneficial effect seems to be long-lasting and cumulative. When the doctors measured the green-tea drinkers' arteries two weeks after daily consumption of the beverage, they found that their vessels were more dilated than they had been at the beginning of the study. "It's something that needs to be investigated, but we think that if someone takes green tea for one or two months, the beneficial effect will be even greater," says Vlachopoulos

What do you have to say about that Percy?


There's plenty of study's that contradict this, I will go with the Prophets thanks.

Teas disgusting anyway, tastes like dirt. (cue nutjobs "you have drank tea before"?? Yes, tried it once, blah)
Green tea is proven to have health benefits. I take green tea capsules. If that's breaking the Word of Wisdom, so be it.

You are not breaking the Word of Wisdom KitKat.

For the Word of Wisdom plainly states..."And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature and use of man.

Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these things to be used with prudence and thanksgiving."

Verses 16 & 17 state..."All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground.

Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

17 is an interesting verse. If you tend toward literalism, you might believe that corn is off limits to man, as well as oats, rye and barley, except as used to make mild drinks.

Apostle George Q.Cannon was such a literalist.

Notice that the Word of Wisdom forbids the use of hot drinks, strong drinks and tobacco. The Mormon Church today interprets hot drinks to mean tea and coffee. It would appear, however, that in the early history of the Church all hot drinks were forbidden.

On April 7, 1868, the Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon stated that chocolate drinks and hot soups were forbidden: "We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks--tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man....we must feed our children properly.... We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pp. 221 & 223)

Now green tea brewed from leaves has perhaps 3-30 m.g. of caffeine per brewed cup (unless you purchase decaffeinated)...compared to around 200 m.g. found in coffee.

The capsule form does not contain caffeine. So according to the current interpretation by the current LDS Church...you should be alright.

Here is the tea which the Mormons used after running out of their supplies of coffee and tea.

Mormon Tea
Ephedra nevadensis
Brigham Tea
Joint Fir
Mexican Tea
Mormon Tea
Popotillo
Squaw Tea

Parts used
Uses
Habitat and cultivation
Constituents
Herbs gallery - mormon_tea.jpg


Mormon tea is prepared from the fresh or dried stems of Ephedra nevadensis Wats., family Ephedraceae, a small erect shrub native to the desert regions of the southwestern United States and adjacent parts of Mexico. Called popotillo by the Mexicans, and Mormon tea, Brigham tea, teamster's tea, or squaw tea by the early American settlers, it was once a very popular folk remedy for syphilis and especially, gonorrhea. Although its taste is quite astringent, those who become accustomed to it like it as a pleasantly refreshing beverage. The name Mormon tea probably derives from its use as a caffeine-free thirst quencher.

Since 1552, the plant yielding Mormon tea has been recommended as being beneficial to health. Widely used by frontiersmen as a cure for venereal disease, Mormon tea is also described as a remedy for colds and kidney disorders, and as a "spring tonic." Spoerke attributes its activity to the presence of an undetermined amount of the alkaloid ephedrine, a medication which constricts the blood vessels, dilates the bronchioles, and stimulates the central nervous system. Gottlieb, Mowed, and Castleman state that Mormon tea's active constituent is not ephedrine but (+ )-norpseudoephedrine, an even more potent central nervous system stimulant.

Actually, five different groups of investigators have been unable to detect the presence of ephedrine, (+ )-norpseudoephedrine, or any other alkaloid in E. nevadensis, and we may safely conclude that the plant is alkaloid-free. This is in keeping with all other North American species of Ephedra which are singularly devoid of alkaloids. Mormon tea does contain large amounts of tannin, in addition to a resin and a volatile oil.

Administration of a fluidextract and an infusion (tea) of the medication to human subjects produced definite, but relatively mild, diuresis. The tea, which contained more water-soluble principles, was more effective in this regard than the alcoholic extract. Some constipation, probably due to the tannin, was also noted. The investigators concluded that Mormon tea does not belong to the exceedingly active class of medicinal plants and that the properties usually attributed to it are already "well supplied by some well-established therapeutic agent."

This is sound comment. If you enjoy the astringent flavor of Mormon tea and are not concerned about its high tannin content, you will be satisfied. If you expect it to have any pronounced therapeutic effect, you will be disappointed.

A stunted, weather-beaten shrub, Mormon tea has furnished a refreshing beverage for residents of Mexico and the American Southwest since Aztec times. By one account the name refers to the early Mormon settlers, who abstained from regular tea and coffee, but drank the beverage made from this plant. The tea is brewed from the powdered twigs.

Mormon tea is related to the Chinese plant ma huang (E. sinica), which contains the medication ephedrine-a bronchial dilator, decongestant, and central nervous system stimulant much used in modern medicine. The American species has no ephedrine, however.
PARTS USED

Twigs.
USES

A tea brewed from twigs of the plant is to this day a popular thirst quencher and folk remedy; however, none of its uses in folk medicine have been validated by research. Although no ephedrine is found in the American ephedras, proponents of Mormon tea maintain that it works as a decongestant and asthma remedy, like its ephedrine-rich Chinese relative, ma huang. In the desert, people chew a piece of the twig to relieve the pain of sunburned lips.
HABITAT AND CULTIVATION

Mormon tea is native to the U.S. Southwest and Mexico.
CONSTITUENTS

Mormon tea contains tannin, resin, volatile oil.

Perhaps I am asking to much of Percy, Sir John...but I am the kind of man who hates to give up on anyone.

Blondie wrote:
[b]
My hair color has nothing to do with you being an AZZ........


It has to do with your brain.....


................. ........................ ......................

Betzz wrote:
Dubbs Kitkats favorite wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs Kitkats favorite wrote:
It's used as a weight loss supplement, doesn't work. Just go with good eating habits, and exercise.

I would think that is breaking the WOW, drinking it or taking it as a pill is no difference. but I'll let you decide if you feel good about that. You'd be healthier just eating good foods and following Wow.


Ummmmm, how does this relate to your previous statements regarding medicine containing alcohol? Didn't you say something to the effect that it's okay with Church leaders and not against the WOW if you do take those medicines? How, exactly, can you consider this to be even close to breaking the WOW when the WOW statement says "Hot drink is not for the belly," correct? The "hot drink" part doesn't even come into play if you're taking a pill.


I posted current interpretation earlier. Covers that.

Instead of expecting me to read through 24 hours of your criticism and condemnation of everyone that doesn't believe the way you do, could you give me a post number or paraphrase what the justification is?

You were LDS and don't understand it? Wow. It always shocks me ex LDS never got the basics, maybe that's the reason their ex LDS? They never really studied it??

The words in the D&C were written in the 1800's and were orginally written as "not a command, but a word of wisdom"


Since then, they have changed in some ways, Hot drinks has been interpreted as tea and coffee by the Prophets, it is now a command to not drink alchohol, and is asks as a temple question.