Dubbs wrote:
Here's some due diligence for you to do bigdumbass. Read and comprehend if you can.


Some people feel that the Kirtland papers "prove" that Joseph's translation was a fraud. The Kirtland Egyptian Papers are a group of documents written by Warren Parrish, Oliver Cowdery, and William W. Phelps. Two documents in the set have Joseph's handwriting on them (but here there is no attempt at translating Egyptian into English). Some of the Kirtland papers contain the text of the published Book of Abraham with a column of Egyptian characters from the Sensen scroll on the left-hand side of the pages. The critics argue that these papers were working documents for the translation of the Book of Abraham, and that Joseph got the translation wrong. (The assumption seems to be made that these papers reflect the work of Joseph Smith, even though most were not written by him, since the men who wrote them served as scribes to Joseph at various times.) If these papers were used to do the translation, it could be construed as powerful evidence in favor of the critics, for the characters in the margin do come from the Book of Breathings, not from some other missing scroll, and the "translation" is obviously incorrect because we have many lines of text for single characters - and what kind of translation is that?
I think that the argument becomes weaker or even irrelevant in light of important evidence. First of all, I feel that the evidence discussed above shows that the Sensen scroll was NOT what Joseph Smith used to produce the translation of the Book of Abraham (though this can be debated). Apart from that issue, an examination of the Kirtland papers shows that they were not Joseph's tools in producing the Book of Abraham. For example, on March 9, 1842, as the Book of Abraham text was being prepared for publication, Joseph Smith made marks for revisions and corrections on his Book of Abraham manuscript (HC 4:518, 543-48). I presume that many other such marks were made during the translation and preparation of the text prior to March 9. None of the Book of Abraham manuscripts in the Kirtland Papers show such editorial marks [Gee, 1995b, p. 226], making it seem unlikely that any of the Kirtland Papers could have been Joseph's working papers for the translation.

Larson shows 4 pages of the papers (Book of Abraham manuscript 1) to suggest that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the characters on the left, but Gee [Gee, 1992a, p. 113] points out that these pages are mostly in the handwriting of Warren Parrish (with a half page at the beginning by W. W. Phelps). More importantly, the Egyptian characters in the margins were obviously added AFTER the English text had been written down. Parrish's English text flows smoothly and continuously, as if written in one steady stream copied from an original document, while the characters at the side get cramped together as if someone were trying to fit them into space that had already been constrained by the English text. Parrish's English text shows no sign of being produced as a translation from material to the left. If the Egyptian had been written first, the English text would have been unevenly spaced to adjust to the spacing of the characters (and probably would have had numerous additions, corrections, etc.). It appears that some of Joseph's associates were examining relationships between Egyptian characters in the Book of Breathings and the Book of Abraham text - after the translation of that first part of the book had been completed.

Readers can see for themselves the evidence that the characters in the margins of the Book of Abraham manuscripts were added after the English text was already there. Six detailed photos are provided by John Gee in A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri [Gee, 2000, p. 22]. These high-quality photographs "show that the characters (1) were written in different ink than the English text ..., (2) do not line up with the English text ..., and (3) run over the margins ... and sometimes the English text.... This indicates that the Egyptian characters were added after the English text was written, perhaps to decorate the beginnings of paragraphs, although the reason for their inclusion was never explicitly stated" [Gee, 2000, p. 22].

In addition, the issue of length again becomes relevant. We know that Joseph had completed a translation of much more material than we now have in the Book of Abraham - and none of that additional material is found in the Kirtland papers. For example, Anson Call's Manuscript Journal (Summer, 1838; cited by Gee, 1992a, p. 111; also cited by Peterson, 1995, p. 140) records an incident in which Joseph and others spent an evening reading aloud from the translated Book of Abraham manuscript. They read on for two solid hours, apparently without finishing, while the small text now published requires only 30 minutes to read aloud. In addition, Joseph also noted that his translation provided extensive information on the "formation of the planetary system" and the system of astronomy [D.C. Jesse, 1984, pp. 60 and 105] - as the text of Abraham says is to be included later in the book (Abraham 1:31). The creation story and Facsimile 2 fall far short of this description. The Kirtland papers provide nothing on astronomical information.

Joseph had stated that he planned to publish more of the translation later. The crisis in Nauvoo and Joseph's martyrdom apparently disrupted these plans. (The scrolls were subsequently lost or destroyed, as far as we know, except for the fragments later found in the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art.) But it is clear that Joseph had produced more than just the brief published text, yet that is all of the translation that we find in the Kirtland Papers.

"LOL" where did you get this from "LOL'

Dubbs did you note how they conveniently left out anything about Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar which is part of the KEP,

Dubbs the KEP is a comprise of 16 documents encompassing a total of about 120 pages, and it contains the controversial Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, and Book of Abraham manuscript documents,

It sounds like someone is trying to deceive us again Dubbs, Come on show where you got that from "LOL"

Big dummy, is this more of what you don't really believe just to iritate ole dubs, or do you really believe it? As you said while I was gone you say things just to iritate me, which would make you a fake here and different in real life, which you always like to claim your the same. Busted

Just Reading wrote:
[b]
"LOL" where did you get this from "LOL'

Dubbs did you note how they conveniently left out anything about Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar which is part of the KEP,

Dubbs the KEP is a comprise of 16 documents encompassing a total of about 120 pages, and it contains the controversial Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, and Book of Abraham manuscript documents,

It sounds like someone is trying to deceive us again Dubbs, Come on show where you got that from "LOL"

You know the KEP are not written in Joseph's handwriting don't you bigdummy? Wouldn't that be the case if he created them and used them to translate? You didn't know this did you? Do some due diligence POS and learn about the whole story before spouting nonsense BS from anti's, I will call your fatass on it everytime.

Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
bearyb wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:

You never answered Big, you went to law school now? Where?

Dubbs it is none of your business but I went to The University of Southern California Law School (Gould School of Law), located in Los Angeles, California, it is a graduate school within the University of Southern California. The oldest law school in the Southwestern United States for your information

So what of it Dubbs did you even graduate high school and just in case you ask, I graduated from Fontana high school, located in Fontana California, just west of San Bernardino

So tell us Dubbs where did you go to School...???

P.S and just so that you know, I also had enrolled in a program of Harcourt Learning Direct a school program that is accredited by the DETC and IACET I have a diploma from them also, as an extra with my Legal Assistants Degree

Well Dubbs tell us where did you go to School..??
It is none of my business either, but in light of all this education you have received there is something I'd like to know: Are you currently employed in some capacity in the law profession?

Well at one time I did own "McGowan's Paralegal and Notary"

"WHY"

About a year ago is when you told us you just started the business, now it's done? Wow, that was quick.

wrong again Dubbs!!

That's your words, not mine. You said about a year ago you started a new Paralegal pro bono service, now it's dead? Why so fast? What do you do now?

No Dubbs, I said that I still do some pro bono work, which yes I still do...

Dubbs wrote:
bearyb wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:

You never answered Big, you went to law school now? Where?

Dubbs it is none of your business but I went to The University of Southern California Law School (Gould School of Law), located in Los Angeles, California, it is a graduate school within the University of Southern California. The oldest law school in the Southwestern United States for your information

So what of it Dubbs did you even graduate high school and just in case you ask, I graduated from Fontana high school, located in Fontana California, just west of San Bernardino

So tell us Dubbs where did you go to School...???

P.S and just so that you know, I also had enrolled in a program of Harcourt Learning Direct a school program that is accredited by the DETC and IACET I have a diploma from them also, as an extra with my Legal Assistants Degree

Well Dubbs tell us where did you go to School..??
It is none of my business either, but in light of all this education you have received there is something I'd like to know: Are you currently employed in some capacity in the law profession?

I'd say he's a legal runner of documents, that's about the only job I could see him smart enough to do. Can you imagine the spelling and grammar in a legal document that Big wrote?

And that from a person deficient in grammar, mechanics, and logical analysis. What a hoot.

Dubbs wrote:
Big dummy, is this more of what you don't really believe just to iritate ole dubs, or do you really believe it? As you said while I was gone you say things just to iritate me, which would make you a fake here and different in real life, which you always like to claim your the same. Busted

Dubbs are you trying to change the subject because you know you are wrong, well it won't work..!! "LOL"