Dubss said..."I think you have an odd obession with thinking people are money minded, maybe there just like you and just are trying there best, and your judging them harshly?"

Interesting. You have been obsessed with John's financial circumstances for quite a while. Maybe he's just like you, and he's trying his best, and you're judging HIM harshly.

Or with BBBB...you have been making quite a few remarks about his communication skills, and his grasp of English.

Perhaps he's just like you Dubss. He's a man, just like you. He has his likes and his dislikes, just like you. He is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just like you.

The only difference I see is that BBBB is not star-struck, as you are, and he is capable of seeing that in HIS neck of the woods, the Church is not living up to their responsibilities to the membership.

This is where similarity ends. You look at the Church, and you can see no wrongdoing...no errors...no mistakes in judgment or in administration.

You are a wealthy man. You claim to own several homes, and be a very young semi-retired man.

You live in a very wealthy Ward. Why WOULD you understand what BBBB is trying to convey? You have no basis for comparison.

BBBB, on the other hand, might not be so wealthy. His fellow members might not be so wealthy. It is possible that he lives in a relatively impoverished area.

It is also possible that the men who have amassed enough wealth to enable them to spend the time and effort as leaders in the faith are not doing their best to care for those who are less fortunate than they are.

My Stake is very diverse. We have people who own waterfront estates on the lakes, or on the Puget Sound...and, being a military zone, we have people living in impoverished circumstances in Section 8 housing.

We are fortunate to have some very decent men administering our Stake. They honor their calling, and take their responsibilities very seriously.

It has not always been like this though. And within the membership, even though our leaders are decent and humble men, we do have a number of members who are very lifted up in the pride of their financial circumstances.

Much as you are.


Dubss said...'Be best to try to talk with them in a one on one setting, and not bad mouth them behind their back.'

To which I reply...Now look who's talking about following the conversation.

This is exactly what BBBB has done. He started off by taking it to his ward leaders, then went to his Stake leaders, and so on and so forth.

He has not received answers to his questions, or his concerns.

You voiced doubt that he received an email from the Secretary of the Twelve telling him to quiet down.

I do not doubt it at all.

After all...the Secretary to the First Presidency took it upon himself to contact the President of the Tabernacle Choir and the LDS Orchestra and opine that they might have an enemy in their midst...(Peter Danzig).

And if a member gets too vocal in his criticism, or his questions...they WILL be contacted by the Church leadership, and told to quiet down.

Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
My wife and I never went to counseling. We just bought some "BETTER SEX" tapes. They seem to work quite well.

Always works for me and mine.

Well of course it does, works for perverts and freaks of all kinds.


Makes me wonder when you started that? I would guess while still active in the church, was this the sin you couldn't stop that made you decide to just leave and think the guilt would disipate? Didn't work did it?

It's none of your business Percy.

What's wrong jealous that me and, my wife have a healthy sexual relationship?

Oh bother, what to do. Dubbs thinks we're perverts and freaks of all kinds. I guess I should be distraught....NOT.

ThomasK wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
My wife and I never went to counseling. We just bought some "BETTER SEX" tapes. They seem to work quite well.

Always works for me and mine.

Well of course it does, works for perverts and freaks of all kinds.


Makes me wonder when you started that? I would guess while still active in the church, was this the sin you couldn't stop that made you decide to just leave and think the guilt would disipate? Didn't work did it?

It's none of your business Percy.

What's wrong jealous that me and, my wife have a healthy sexual relationship?

Oh bother, what to do. Dubbs thinks we're perverts and freaks of all kinds. I guess I should be distraught....NOT.

If he be again it and, we be for it. That has to mean we're on the right side of it.

Dubbs wrote:
bgena wrote:
I have just wasted a few minutes reading through the last few pages of comments and I am bewildered as to what any of your comments have to do with the article.
Here are the facts as I see them:
A man made a calendar of RETURNED missionaries.
No, they are not in provocative poses but, they are posing without shirts.

Here are my problems with this:
They have made a covenant to wear the garments at all times. (Yes, you may shower and swim without it).

These RM's have chosen to use their bodies as an ornament, something to visually arouse others. Hmmmmm......I think that might be something our Father in Heaven would not want us to do with our bodies.

The man who was ex-communicated from the church had a choice: make the calendar or don't. He made it to make money. He chose money over his morals and values. He basically chose to go against the values and morals of the church. He actually chose excommunication.

Maybe you who keep arguing about your own "personal" beliefs and feelings and sad, sad experiences where someone was done wrong, need to do a little self examination. After all, we are responsible only for our own actions, thoughts and deeds. Unless of course you were Mr. October


Great post, especially the underlined, it desribes BBBB and Jaye to the T.

Rather than slicing and dicing people's comments to suit your purposes...you really need to quit misrepresenting them and take their ENTIRE message to heart.

Bgena also mentioned people who keep arguing about their own personal beliefs and feelings. Bgena ALSO rightly mentioned that we are responsible only for our OWN actions, thoughts and deeds.

Or perhaps you didn't notice that?

Dubbs wrote:
bgena wrote:
I have just wasted a few minutes reading through the last few pages of comments and I am bewildered as to what any of your comments have to do with the article.
Here are the facts as I see them:
A man made a calendar of RETURNED missionaries.
No, they are not in provocative poses but, they are posing without shirts.

Here are my problems with this:
They have made a covenant to wear the garments at all times. (Yes, you may shower and swim without it).

These RM's have chosen to use their bodies as an ornament, something to visually arouse others. Hmmmmm......I think that might be something our Father in Heaven would not want us to do with our bodies.

The man who was ex-communicated from the church had a choice: make the calendar or don't. He made it to make money. He chose money over his morals and values. He basically chose to go against the values and morals of the church. He actually chose excommunication.

Maybe you who keep arguing about your own "personal" beliefs and feelings and sad, sad experiences where someone was done wrong, need to do a little self examination. After all, we are responsible only for our own actions, thoughts and deeds. Unless of course you were Mr. October


Great post, especially the underlined, it desribes BBBB and Jaye to the T.

Rather than slicing and dicing people's comments to suit your purposes...you really need to quit misrepresenting them and take their ENTIRE message to heart.

Bgena also mentioned people who keep arguing about their own personal beliefs and feelings. Bgena ALSO rightly mentioned that we are responsible only for our OWN actions, thoughts and deeds.

Or perhaps you didn't notice that?

Dubss said..."Well I hope it makes you feel good to bash the church, bash it's leaders, and then feel as if you are doing the church any good. You really are a disgusting member."

To which Jaye replies...BBBB is doing what he feels is best in the service of his fellow members whom he feels are not being served to the best of the administrations abilities.

He is verbalizing his concerns, and his frustrations, and his disappointments. It is his right and his duty as a member of the faith to hold the leadership responsible to fulfill their responsibilities to the membership.

It is his duty as a professional counselor to bring his concerns about the welfare and wellbeing of the people he counsels to the attention of the leadership.

YOU...on the other hand...YOU have done more harm to the reputation and good name of the LDS Church from the despicable behavior you display, vitriol you spew, and the foul language you use, while at the same time expressing your claims to be defending the Church...than any true enemy of the Church has ever done.