Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:

Are you going to try to claim that you and your wife have NEVER watched an R rated movie?


When we were married we promised each other we would follow the PRophets council, do you know the Prophets council in this regard Jaye?


Jaye said ..."rated are movies are porn anyways"

Yes, that's why we are counciled not to view the filth that is coming out more and more in the last days, you obviously don't follow this advice.

Oh brother like you follow their advice!!!!!

BBBB wrote:
[iNow, I give the issues I complained and (what year I filed the complaint)
(1) The power abuse of a stake president to mis-use a Church Court (June 2005 – June 2007). My Stake President was alleged to lie to me in the process of handling this case, in order to dismiss the case. I pushed up to Area President (AP) and the GA.

Was this your case or someone elses? If yours why would you be upset he was trying to dismiss it? If someone elses, then it's none of your business to begin with.




(2) A disrespecting Ward Meeting policy regarding food and silence and orders, to discriminate some families with special children (July 2007). This came from some parents disrespecting the bishop, who issued the policy despite the objection of his bishopric. Since the bishopric is my family friends, I successfully overthrew the policy. This one stayed in the Ward level only.


"you" successfully overthrew the policy? More like the Bishop took heed of those around him's advice, and decided on his own to reverse it. You seem to have a need to get involved and take credit for everything.




(3) As a marital counselor, I pushed to open LDS Social Service here (March 2006). It was my personal needs, in terms of me seeing many childhood friends in Church getting divorce. I could not imagine it happened in their families, because they are good guys and good gals. Bishops need professionals to help, and the concerned members and children in the concerned families need religious help as well as professional help. If we send them out to outside non-religious counseling agencies or the outside Christian agencies for counseling service, they would not receive service with Mormon context. I pushed up to the Area Office/AP, the GA and the headquarter of LDS Social Service. This one was not a complaint, but just a request/a brief proposal. Of course, there were some heated debates or discussion (like here in posting). I did not say anything that they were wrong. In fact, they are not wrong in any way. Of course, I failed in this course.



You should have just let it go through the Proper channels, IE, Bishop, Stake President, Area authority, You are abusing the proper line of prieshood leadership.

The following story triggered me my indifference to the Church. In 2007, I was for first time in a conference with many Mormon psychological therapists. The hosts of the Conference were very warm and introduced me to some persons (because the hosts were nice persons, and they did not want to forget a small potato from a brand-new country without any of their members.) They introduced me to a gentleman, whom they called International-Guy. When the International-Guy heard my name and my country, he just gave a cold shoulder, and said he had already received my emails. I did not know what was going on, so just exchanged name cards with each other under the instructions of the hosts. One of the hosts brought me to his table, and gave me a good hospitality (because he did not want me to feel hurt). His hospitality was so good that his past student, a Ph D candidate, on the same table thought that I was a big potato coming from a big country, and tried to befriend with me. I was grateful for the hosts, who are members. I was sad and then became indifferent to the International-Guy, who is also a member, whom I found from the name card to be an assistant head of the LDS Social Service headquarter in Salt Lake City. Why did a good nature of counseling profession and a good nature of Gospel not refine a person who is supposed to be soaked in these two fields?


So you wrote a letter to someone because of an assumed rude behavior of a member?

(4) I proposed to Public Affairs to relate Counseling Service as a community service to my country. This would help the Church image here (June 2004 to June 2005). This was the first part of the above number (3), which appeared to upset the concerned Church staff already in Area Office.

Should be done in proper line of authority, would help your reputation, and not marginalize your many complaints.




(5) A mistake to purchase a small piece of land to build a chapel, where a public pavement has to cut across the land into 2 halves (June 2005). The Ward members have to suffer, unless they give up the land. No normal persons love to buy such a piece of land. I did not care about wasting money, but my concerns were the members using the odd piece of land. I pushed up to the Presiding Bishop and the GA, because it is a mistake of the Area Office/AP, who did not disclose their mistake to the Ward members, but just asked the Ward members to fast and pray for eliminating the problem of the land. (The bishopric and the stake presidency to reveal this problem. Otherwise, no one knows the mistake of AO.)


Are we not asked to help build the kingdom of God? With our time, talents, and everything? How is having a chapel going to hurt the members?


(6) Pushing for Service Missionary and Service volunteers by Area Office (June 2005). Stake Presidency followed to push for it. Bishops objected, and finally aborted. Members were alleged to be lazy and be blamed. I reflected to the GA the pitfalls of such projects, in terms of no liability insurance for volunteers, no concerns and care for volunteers and their energy and time in combination of Sunday meetings, seminary/institute, work/school, family/quorum projects, temple work and genealogy work, long-travelling expenses, etc. I complained to ask the GA to check if the members were exploited. We live in an Area where life is not as relaxed as that in USA.



Again abusing the line of authority, if leaders above you don't feel something is necessary, either pray and wait for further light and knowledge, or take it they also prayed and ask for guidance. To go "over their head" to a GA, makes you look like a complainer, and also shows you are not following the proper line of authority.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
[
1. The condo is given to them for as long as they live.

2. I wouldn't consider a condo worth $1.2 MILLION dollars in SLC to be a modest little cottage either..


The condo is "Given to them" or is it used as an office for their work and home?


You understand the difference right?


You don't seem to understand that it's not "given" to them as an asset they can sell, pass along to relatives right?

It's used by them while they are in service to the chuch, not "given' to them as something they own.


As I said you love to twist things to make the brethen look bad, just another example.

Tell me something Percy. What size condo did Jesus live in?

Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
[
1. The condo is given to them for as long as they live.

2. I wouldn't consider a condo worth $1.2 MILLION dollars in SLC to be a modest little cottage either..


The condo is "Given to them" or is it used as an office for their work and home?


You understand the difference right?


You don't seem to understand that it's not "given" to them as an asset they can sell, pass along to relatives right?

It's used by them while they are in service to the chuch, not "given' to them as something they own.


As I said you love to twist things to make the brethen look bad, just another example.

Tell my something Percy. What size condo did Jesus live in?

Did they have condo's back then?


Different era apostate, differing times.

BBBB wrote:
Quote:
I see a few discrepancies in your comment.
1. Bishops are not fired. ......
2. ......release him with gratitude for a job well done.
3. Members are not COMMANDED to serve callings. ......

I agree with your standards, and these are my standards. With this context, I think the experiences I have said are sad experiences. Without this context (or with a context opposite to these standards, I can say the experiences are sad experiences. The older bishop was released but he did not want to be released at that moment. He questioned why to release him in his goodbye talk in the Ward Conference. I asked him about this issue many months afterward, in the dinner hosted by a member in the new bishopric. The member of the new bishopric is my family's friend and the family is often my guests in my dinners.

When I speculated why the bishop got fired, my family firend (the new bishopric) said I was wrong. I speculated: because I complained many leaders and he protected me, he got fired. Instantly, I knew why I was wrong with my speculation. The bishop had greivance against the outsouring policy of Area Office, because the design of the policy was problematic and a Ward member got hurt in terms of employment and income. The income was important to the member's family and children. Without any change of the policy, the bishop used Ward's money to help the family EVERY MONTH after the family's income dropped due to outsourcing. The Stake President disliked it, but the bishop kept doing it. Finally, he chose to be fired, but he did not choose to give up the monetary help to the family. I said he chose being fired, because I warned him his frequent money help would not be tolerated. He knew his consequence, before he took actions.

Quote:
As far as the treatment of the former Bishop's son's Baptism day ......

Thank you for your comfort to me! My brain told me what you have just said to me. My heart told me what I have said to you, when I saw the Baptism Meeting under a context of some of their Baptism Meetings and Sunday Meetings. I wished I was wrong with my heart's message.

Quote:
What do you suppose happens when an employee in a corporation, or a member of an organization constantly complains about every little detail in the operation of that organization or corporation?

What do you think in my mind, when I said earlier in posting: I wrote to my professor to say I wondered why I did not know to find an easy life. I wrote to the GA to say I knew I endangered/jeopardised my reputation/status in Church, but my focuse was the members' welfares.

Though I am a silly boy, I can tell you a real story: some staff got fired by a company, and they sued the company. No matter whether or not they were right, they would not be hired by any other companies. They had to change to another job field in order to find a job. That is: a trader had to change to be a teacher, or vice versa. They could not be hired in the same job field ---- end of their job life.

I will repeat this...Bishops do not get fired. They are released for a variety of reasons...and I posted these reasons for you to consider.

From what you have said, both Bishops had served the usual term for serving as Bishop...and well beyond the usual term.

Not really knowing what country you are in, I cannot ascertain what the standard policies are in that area regarding either standard, or unsual lengths of terms for any given Bishop to serve.

It would be helpful if you would state which country you are speaking of. As I have said...different countries may differ greatly in their policies of administration, and in the customs of the local membership.

The Bishop who was released evidently was not well informed as to the standard length of term he would be serving.

Thus his confusion as to why he was being RELEASED from his position...NOT fired.

You keep using that term. It is not the correct term.

Please try to understand this.

As for your reputation and standing within the Church...perhaps you would do better to focus your attention and efforts to simply serving the Lord, and serving your fellow members to the best of your ability.

It is not likely that by constantly spitting into the wind, you will enact change in the way that your area has seen fit to administer the policies of the Church.

I would advise doing what YOU can personally do to help ease the burdens you have seen with your clients. It may be that you are not financially able to help them with monetary assistance...but you can certainly assist them by offering your continued loyal friendship, and moral support.

Your story about staff being fired from their positions and finding it necessary to change professions is not so silly. It happens every day.

But you are, once again, forgetting that Bishops and local leaders within the LDS Church are not employees. They serve their term in a voluntary status.

They cannot be fired. Therefore, your story does not apply to this issue, although it does apply in the world of business corporations.

Dubbs wrote:
BBBB wrote:
[iNow, I give the issues I complained and (what year I filed the complaint)
(1) The power abuse of a stake president to mis-use a Church Court (June 2005 – June 2007). My Stake President was alleged to lie to me in the process of handling this case, in order to dismiss the case. I pushed up to Area President (AP) and the GA.

Was this your case or someone elses? If yours why would you be upset he was trying to dismiss it? If someone elses, then it's none of your business to begin with.




(2) A disrespecting Ward Meeting policy regarding food and silence and orders, to discriminate some families with special children (July 2007). This came from some parents disrespecting the bishop, who issued the policy despite the objection of his bishopric. Since the bishopric is my family friends, I successfully overthrew the policy. This one stayed in the Ward level only.


"you" successfully overthrew the policy? More like the Bishop took heed of those around him's advice, and decided on his own to reverse it. You seem to have a need to get involved and take credit for everything.




(3) As a marital counselor, I pushed to open LDS Social Service here (March 2006). It was my personal needs, in terms of me seeing many childhood friends in Church getting divorce. I could not imagine it happened in their families, because they are good guys and good gals. Bishops need professionals to help, and the concerned members and children in the concerned families need religious help as well as professional help. If we send them out to outside non-religious counseling agencies or the outside Christian agencies for counseling service, they would not receive service with Mormon context. I pushed up to the Area Office/AP, the GA and the headquarter of LDS Social Service. This one was not a complaint, but just a request/a brief proposal. Of course, there were some heated debates or discussion (like here in posting). I did not say anything that they were wrong. In fact, they are not wrong in any way. Of course, I failed in this course.



You should have just let it go through the Proper channels, IE, Bishop, Stake President, Area authority, You are abusing the proper line of prieshood leadership.

The following story triggered me my indifference to the Church. In 2007, I was for first time in a conference with many Mormon psychological therapists. The hosts of the Conference were very warm and introduced me to some persons (because the hosts were nice persons, and they did not want to forget a small potato from a brand-new country without any of their members.) They introduced me to a gentleman, whom they called International-Guy. When the International-Guy heard my name and my country, he just gave a cold shoulder, and said he had already received my emails. I did not know what was going on, so just exchanged name cards with each other under the instructions of the hosts. One of the hosts brought me to his table, and gave me a good hospitality (because he did not want me to feel hurt). His hospitality was so good that his past student, a Ph D candidate, on the same table thought that I was a big potato coming from a big country, and tried to befriend with me. I was grateful for the hosts, who are members. I was sad and then became indifferent to the International-Guy, who is also a member, whom I found from the name card to be an assistant head of the LDS Social Service headquarter in Salt Lake City. Why did a good nature of counseling profession and a good nature of Gospel not refine a person who is supposed to be soaked in these two fields?


So you wrote a letter to someone because of an assumed rude behavior of a member?

(4) I proposed to Public Affairs to relate Counseling Service as a community service to my country. This would help the Church image here (June 2004 to June 2005). This was the first part of the above number (3), which appeared to upset the concerned Church staff already in Area Office.

Should be done in proper line of authority, would help your reputation, and not marginalize your many complaints.




(5) A mistake to purchase a small piece of land to build a chapel, where a public pavement has to cut across the land into 2 halves (June 2005). The Ward members have to suffer, unless they give up the land. No normal persons love to buy such a piece of land. I did not care about wasting money, but my concerns were the members using the odd piece of land. I pushed up to the Presiding Bishop and the GA, because it is a mistake of the Area Office/AP, who did not disclose their mistake to the Ward members, but just asked the Ward members to fast and pray for eliminating the problem of the land. (The bishopric and the stake presidency to reveal this problem. Otherwise, no one knows the mistake of AO.)


Are we not asked to help build the kingdom of God? With our time, talents, and everything? How is having a chapel going to hurt the members?


(6) Pushing for Service Missionary and Service volunteers by Area Office (June 2005). Stake Presidency followed to push for it. Bishops objected, and finally aborted. Members were alleged to be lazy and be blamed. I reflected to the GA the pitfalls of such projects, in terms of no liability insurance for volunteers, no concerns and care for volunteers and their energy and time in combination of Sunday meetings, seminary/institute, work/school, family/quorum projects, temple work and genealogy work, long-travelling expenses, etc. I complained to ask the GA to check if the members were exploited. We live in an Area where life is not as relaxed as that in USA.



Again abusing the line of authority, if leaders above you don't feel something is necessary, either pray and wait for further light and knowledge, or take it they also prayed and ask for guidance. To go "over their head" to a GA, makes you look like a complainer, and also shows you are not following the proper line of authority.


To go "over their head" to a GA, makes you look like a complainer, and also shows you are not following the proper line of authority

Percy are talking about the LDS Church or, the military?