Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs replies, "So again, what does gaslighting mean to you? And how was I gaslighted? // What I showed that if I found an LDS person using LDS computers and time to bash the church, I would turn them in, yes, I would, as would most good LDS people who want to protect the church. // So how was I 'gaslighed again?"

By revealing your rotten character for one, and that you were made a fool of for two.


How is it rotten character protecting my church? I look at that as an honorable person.

Dubbs what you do doesn't protect your Church, it just makes you and your church look bad.....

and by trying to get someone fired from their job for having a different opionion then you!!! there is NOTHING honorable in that......nothing at all....

Don't want to get fired? Don't use company resources and time to bash said company. Espeically my church, I'll turn you in in a heart beat, deal with it.

Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:

Now, what kind of accommodations did Jesus live in? Or are you still unable to answer?

Actually, I'm curious the logic you are trying to follow here. So I will bite.


Jesus lived as far as we know in wilderness, in peoples homes, and in adobe or clay huts.


So? And? Therefore what?

In other words, he lived off the goodness and kindness of other people. Just like the LDS clergy and all other religions clergy. There is nothing wrong with it as long as the clergymen don't take advantage of the situation.

Was that so difficult? Did you think you were being set up or something? See, answering questions isn't always a bad thing.


Apostate johns (and Jayes) response was different, he was trying to say that Rich people can't go to heaven, and it's wrong that the Prophets get paid. They used the condo as their example of riches being paid to the Prophets.

I'm sorry... your repsonse is logical and I jumped to the conclusion in your case.

Where did the discussions about paid clergy and rich people not getting into heaven get turned into the same discussion. I must have missed that . . .


Apostate John asked the question, I asked back are you saying rich people can't be christian and go to heaven, he then quoted the scripture that talks about it being hard for rich people to go to heaven.

It all started with Jaye's posting of how much the Prophets get paid and where they get to live.

Which prompted Apostates question about where Jesus lived. He's trying to say the Prophet shouldn't live in a 1.2 mill condo.

I think a 1.2 mil condo is a bit excessive . . . I mean, you bring up the televangelists - I would wager you don't much care for the extravagant way they live - and before you go get yourself into a froth, I'm not saying the LDS hierarchy live extravagantly, but I think about how that 1.2 mil condo comes across to the every day joeblow that works his butt off to keep his own family clothed, fed, and sheltered - as well as pay a full tithe. I mean, let's be realistic, here. I don't expect my pastor to live in abject poverty, but if he lived in a home that was well beyond the means of most of the members of the church, I'd start doing some heavy duty questioning.


I think that value get's blown out of proportion, first, it's not an extravgent condo, it's just in a good area that has high value, and the value hasn't always been that high, I mean the church owned the property, built a condo complex for church use and to rent to others, and it just so happened the value shot up.


But to use that as some "extravegent lifestyle" that there living is a joke, these men are humble, simple men who were mostly succesful business men before they got called. Money does not make one evil, the love of money over God makes one evil, Jaye and Apostate don't get this and misunderstand the scripture.

Dubss said..."these men are humble, simple men who were mostly succesful business men before they got called."


While working as a surveyor for the railroad for a short time as a young man, Smith's eyesight was permanently impaired by glare from the sun. After 1903, Smith found his frequent travels debilitating, and began to show prominent symptoms of physical weakness. He was eventually diagnosed with lupus erythematosus, a chronic debilitating autoimmune disease.

He worked for the Church for the rest of his life. Not exactly a successful business career.

David O.McKay graduated from the University of Utah in 1897 as valedictorian and class president. Immediately afterward he was called on a mission to Great Britain. Like his father, he presided over the Scottish district of the church.

Upon his return in fall 1899, McKay taught at the high school level LDS Weber stake academy and became principal in 1902. He married Emma Ray Riggs in the Salt Lake Temple on January 2, 1901. McKay planned on a career in education and educational administration until called to a full time church position in 1906.

So he basically worked for the Church most of his life.

Harold B Lee held his first teaching position in the fall of 1916. He taught a class of 25 students, grades one to eight, in Weston, Idaho. His salary was $60 a month. When he was eighteen, he became principal of a school in Oxford, Idaho.

In 1936 Lee became managing director of the Church Welfare Program. Although he also pursued a political career, he began full-time work for the church when he was called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1941, and he worked for the Church until the day he died.

Shortly after marrying, Spencer Kimball received employment in banking. After working for several different banks, in 1927 he started his own insurance and real estate agency. Additionally, he made a significant portion of his income as a debt collector. This he continued until his call into full time church service and was called to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles at age 48.

I suppose you could say he had been a successful business man.

Gordon B.Hinckley worked for the LDS Church from the time he returned from his mission.

In 1945, at age 17, Thomas Monson joined the United States Naval Reserve and anticipated participating in World War II in the Pacific theater.He was sent to San Diego, California but was not moved overseas before the end of the war. His tour of duty lasted six months beyond the end of the war, and after it was completed he returned to the University of Utah. Monson graduated cum laude in 1948 with a bachelor's degree in business management.

After college he rejoined the Naval Reserve with the aim of becoming an officer. Shortly after receiving his commission acceptance letter, his ward bishop asked him to serve as a counselor in the bishopric. Time conflicts with bishopric meetings would have made serving in the Navy impossible. After discussing things with church apostle Harold B. Lee (his former stake president), Monson declined the commission and applied for a discharge. The Navy granted his discharge in the last group processed before the Korean War. Lee set him apart six months later as a bishop—mentioning in the the blessing that he likely would not have been called if he had accepted the commission.

Thomas Monson taught for a time at the University of Utah, then began a career in publishing. His first job was with the Deseret News, where he became an advertising executive until he was called to be an apostle in 1963 at age 36.

I said most, still they are humble simple men who live modestly, is the point.

If that's what you believe...you STILL haven't read the accounts I provided which conclude that a number of them lived beyond their means, borrowed heavily upon the Church's funds, and in a number of cases...never repaid what they had borrowed.

Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs replies, "So again, what does gaslighting mean to you? And how was I gaslighted? // What I showed that if I found an LDS person using LDS computers and time to bash the church, I would turn them in, yes, I would, as would most good LDS people who want to protect the church. // So how was I 'gaslighed again?"

By revealing your rotten character for one, and that you were made a fool of for two.


How is it rotten character protecting my church? I look at that as an honorable person.

Dubbs what you do doesn't protect your Church, it just makes you and your church look bad.....

and by trying to get someone fired from their job for having a different opionion then you!!! there is NOTHING honorable in that......nothing at all....

Don't want to get fired? Don't use company resources and time to bash said company. Espeically my church, I'll turn you in in a heart beat, deal with it.

oooooohhhh, be still my beating heart!

Your church needed no protecting because only the truth was being told.

You came up with the FHC all by your little lonesome, Dubbsy, so don't pass the macho nonsense around, cause you will just get bashed down.

Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:

Now, what kind of accommodations did Jesus live in? Or are you still unable to answer?

Actually, I'm curious the logic you are trying to follow here. So I will bite.


Jesus lived as far as we know in wilderness, in peoples homes, and in adobe or clay huts.


So? And? Therefore what?

In other words, he lived off the goodness and kindness of other people. Just like the LDS clergy and all other religions clergy. There is nothing wrong with it as long as the clergymen don't take advantage of the situation.

Was that so difficult? Did you think you were being set up or something? See, answering questions isn't always a bad thing.


Apostate johns (and Jayes) response was different, he was trying to say that Rich people can't go to heaven, and it's wrong that the Prophets get paid. They used the condo as their example of riches being paid to the Prophets.

I'm sorry... your repsonse is logical and I jumped to the conclusion in your case.

Where did the discussions about paid clergy and rich people not getting into heaven get turned into the same discussion. I must have missed that . . .


Apostate John asked the question, I asked back are you saying rich people can't be christian and go to heaven, he then quoted the scripture that talks about it being hard for rich people to go to heaven.

It all started with Jaye's posting of how much the Prophets get paid and where they get to live.

Which prompted Apostates question about where Jesus lived. He's trying to say the Prophet shouldn't live in a 1.2 mill condo.

I think a 1.2 mil condo is a bit excessive . . . I mean, you bring up the televangelists - I would wager you don't much care for the extravagant way they live - and before you go get yourself into a froth, I'm not saying the LDS hierarchy live extravagantly, but I think about how that 1.2 mil condo comes across to the every day joeblow that works his butt off to keep his own family clothed, fed, and sheltered - as well as pay a full tithe. I mean, let's be realistic, here. I don't expect my pastor to live in abject poverty, but if he lived in a home that was well beyond the means of most of the members of the church, I'd start doing some heavy duty questioning.


I think that value get's blown out of proportion, first, it's not an extravgent condo, it's just in a good area that has high value, and the value hasn't always been that high, I mean the church owned the property, built a condo complex for church use and to rent to others, and it just so happened the value shot up.


But to use that as some "extravegent lifestyle" that there living is a joke, these men are humble, simple men who were mostly succesful business men before they got called. Money does not make one evil, the love of money over God makes one evil, Jaye and Apostate don't get this and misunderstand the scripture.

Dubss said..."these men are humble, simple men who were mostly succesful business men before they got called."


While working as a surveyor for the railroad for a short time as a young man, Smith's eyesight was permanently impaired by glare from the sun. After 1903, Smith found his frequent travels debilitating, and began to show prominent symptoms of physical weakness. He was eventually diagnosed with lupus erythematosus, a chronic debilitating autoimmune disease.

He worked for the Church for the rest of his life. Not exactly a successful business career.

David O.McKay graduated from the University of Utah in 1897 as valedictorian and class president. Immediately afterward he was called on a mission to Great Britain. Like his father, he presided over the Scottish district of the church.

Upon his return in fall 1899, McKay taught at the high school level LDS Weber stake academy and became principal in 1902. He married Emma Ray Riggs in the Salt Lake Temple on January 2, 1901. McKay planned on a career in education and educational administration until called to a full time church position in 1906.

So he basically worked for the Church most of his life.

Harold B Lee held his first teaching position in the fall of 1916. He taught a class of 25 students, grades one to eight, in Weston, Idaho. His salary was $60 a month. When he was eighteen, he became principal of a school in Oxford, Idaho.

In 1936 Lee became managing director of the Church Welfare Program. Although he also pursued a political career, he began full-time work for the church when he was called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1941, and he worked for the Church until the day he died.

Shortly after marrying, Spencer Kimball received employment in banking. After working for several different banks, in 1927 he started his own insurance and real estate agency. Additionally, he made a significant portion of his income as a debt collector. This he continued until his call into full time church service and was called to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles at age 48.

I suppose you could say he had been a successful business man.

Gordon B.Hinckley worked for the LDS Church from the time he returned from his mission.

In 1945, at age 17, Thomas Monson joined the United States Naval Reserve and anticipated participating in World War II in the Pacific theater.He was sent to San Diego, California but was not moved overseas before the end of the war. His tour of duty lasted six months beyond the end of the war, and after it was completed he returned to the University of Utah. Monson graduated cum laude in 1948 with a bachelor's degree in business management.

After college he rejoined the Naval Reserve with the aim of becoming an officer. Shortly after receiving his commission acceptance letter, his ward bishop asked him to serve as a counselor in the bishopric. Time conflicts with bishopric meetings would have made serving in the Navy impossible. After discussing things with church apostle Harold B. Lee (his former stake president), Monson declined the commission and applied for a discharge. The Navy granted his discharge in the last group processed before the Korean War. Lee set him apart six months later as a bishop—mentioning in the the blessing that he likely would not have been called if he had accepted the commission.

Thomas Monson taught for a time at the University of Utah, then began a career in publishing. His first job was with the Deseret News, where he became an advertising executive until he was called to be an apostle in 1963 at age 36.

I said most, still they are humble simple men who live modestly, is the point.

If that's what you believe...you STILL haven't read the accounts I provided which conclude that a number of themt lived beyond their means, borrowed heavily upon the Church's funds, and in a number of cases...never repaid what they had borrowed.

Sylvester Cannon, general authority. . . who knows the shennanigans that bad boy was up to with church funds? He is one of several GA bad boys. Look it up, Dubbs.

It took new President John Taylor several years to unravel church funds from Brigham Young's estate, and still got sued by several of BY's children. Look it up, Dubbs.

This was told to me by a son of one the original investors. The local church leaders in North San Diego County took a good portion of the ward clerk's estate, which was supposed to go to the LDS church. Instead that money was used to invest in properties in San Luis Rey Valley. They all made a killing, they paid the money back into the church funds (without interest), and the church nor the law did nothing about it.

The integrity of the teller is beyond question, one of the most honorable people that I have ever met. He paid his father's debt out of his own funds after he father died when he had no legal reason to do so.