Wren (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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[b]Dubbs wrote:It is my faiths belief, I don't need to provide historical evidence no more than you need to provide historical evidance that Jesus is the Christ.
You are right: it is only belief, not proof for anyone else.
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Blondie (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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KitKat wrote:Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Percy you still haven't answered the question. What kind of accomodations did Jesus live in?
He can't answer the question because he knows if he answers truthfully, you'll have won the argument. And, by God, he can't let THAT happen! 
Really eh Betzy? Let's see, you are now an apostate mormon that now goes to a "Christian" church correct?
So does your pastor work for free? Live in a Shack out back?
Don't be a hypocrite, your pastor works for filthy lucre, and priestcrafts his work. But hey, he got a degree from a university to preach, he must be right 
That makes no more sense than for me to write your GAs work for fithy lucre and priestcraft is their work.
Go grow up, Dubbs.
There's a difference between making your living at preaching, and working for the Lord in your latter years as an apostle of the Lord, you've already worked your whole life in another career.
Filthy lucre is getting paid to preach incorrect doctrine also. Which they do.
Oh, so now you're saying the Bible is incorrect doctrine?
You're such an arrogant little SOB.
No, not what I'm saying.
what I'm saying is there "interpretation" of the bible is incorrect.
Interesting. That isn't what you've told me in the past. You've told me, quite bluntly, that you believe some of the Bible to be "incorrect". And you slammed me because I didn't agree with that.
Yes, some of the Bible is incorrect, and if you read Joseph Smith's edited footnotes in the LDS version of the KJ bible, you would know this.
Course you admitted you don't own one, so how would you know this?
Never admitted any such thing. You assume quite a bit, don't you?
Personally, I put the Bible above the Book of Mormon.
Fact remains, whether you put the Bible above the BofM (why a LDS person would do that is illogical, but that's you) The bible has many mistakes, and needed correcting, and that was done, that's the point, I have said it has many mistakes, but those mistakes if you study the Prophets have been corrected is the point.
KitKat is correct in putting the Bible above the Book of Mormon.
This is why the Book of Mormon is known as a SECOND witness of Jesus Christ...not the ONLY testament of Jesus Christ...or the REPLACEMENT to the Holy Bible.
Actually you are wrong here also, (surprise surprise) Get in bed Jaye.
The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER witness of Jesus Christ and the Most correct book of scripture on earth.
I wouldn't say either are ahead of the other, but the Bible is the one that is in need of interpretation because of the many errors, omissions, removal of doctrine, and mistakes. This has been done by the Prophets, they have replaced the plain and precious parts that were removed.
That is the LDS view on it.
Not a "second" witness, and nobody said it's the "only" testement, and it's not a "replacement"
Your views are so far off at times Jaye it's comical to see.
Joseph Smith's mother educated her sons using the Holy Bible as a primer. It was a great part of his emotional and psychological upbringing, contained most of his spiritual education, and the Book of Mormon borrows heavily at times from verses from the Holy Bible.
Don't forget...the Nephites originated in the Holy land. The knowledge, laws, and teachings of the Old Testament was their basic ancestry, and the core of their heritage.
The Bible comes first. Not only does it contain a record and genealogy of the people of the covenant,the House of Israel, it contains record of God's will and His laws for these people.
The very will, and the very laws that Lehi and his family carried with them from the Holy land.
The Old Testament also contains numerous prophesies regarding the coming of a promised Messiah, who would free Israel from the bonds of slavery, and oppression.
The New Testament contains record, within the Four Gospels, of Christ's birth, ministry, death, and resurrection.
The Bible is the primary testament to Jesus Christ.
And the Book of Mormon, is the secondary testament to Jesus Christ.
Or...as it is stated on the first page of the Book of Mormon...'ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST'.
It does not say, nor is it meant to be considered to be a replacement for the Bible, nor to draw attention from the Bible, nor to gainsay the Bible.
Once again...you have GROSSLY misinterpreted and misrepresented my words and my beliefs.
But that is only par for the course with you.
From my understanding and readings, they are equal, one is not above the other.
Although the Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of our religion. And, the Book of Mormon is "Another" testement, that does not interpret to "secondary" in anyone's mind but yours.
You need to stop trying to speak for everyone else. As far as I am concerned, the Book of Mormon is secondary to the Bible. If I were to be stranded on an island, and could only take one Scripture with me, it would be the Holy Bible. I know you'll disagree, that's ok. But this is how I feel.
Another thing, dubs. When I took Seminary, it was a three year program. The courses were 1) Old Testament, 2) New Testament and 3) Church History. Now, if we wanted to, we could take an extra credit class after school. I did. That class was the Book of Mormon. And that's one more reason I hold the Bible higher.
If you can show me the church believes the Bible is more important, I'd like to see it, never seen that, I've always been taught their equal.
Not the indication you've given in the past. Change your mind again...eh?
Here is what the Church has to say.
From http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/reverence-for-the-bible
Reverence for the Bible
SALT LAKE CITY 25 January 2008 During the past several years, scholars, religious leaders, journalists and the general public have steadily shown an increased interest in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of this attention has been focused on the question of whether it is a Christian faith. Central to this inquiry is the Churchâs relationship with the Bible. Many have wondered whether Latter-day Saints believe in the Bible at all. Still others have supposed that the Church uses the Bible only when convenient, while shrugging it off as an inessential part of scriptural canon. With so many conflicting voices participating in this discussion, it may seem difficult to know where the Church stands on this issue.
The truth is that the Church reveres the Bible as a sacred volume of scripture. Latter-day Saints cherish its teachings and engage in a lifelong study of its divine wisdom. Moreover, during worship and instruction services the Bible and its teachings are pondered and discussed. To increase biblical understanding, the Church provides extensive resources and tools: lesson manuals, cross-reference materials, Bible maps, a Bible dictionary, and articles in various magazines. Thus, the Bible is much more than simply a collection of antiquated writings and revelations that have only scant relevance to the modern world. On the contrary, it stands in the center of the Latter-day Saintsâ spiritual lives.
In a recent sermon, Church apostle Elder M. Russell Ballard characterized the Bible as the âbedrock of all Christianityâ and one of the âpillarsâ of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, he described the Bible as a miracle: âIt is a miracle that the Bibleâs 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen. ⦠It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned menâs hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.â It instills real, tangible power in the lives of Latter-day Saints and offers practical solutions and spiritual guidance that inspire them to overcome challenges and trials.
There is a broad range of approaches within the vast mosaic of biblical interpretation. For example, biblical inerrancy maintains that the Bible is without error and contradiction; biblical infallibility holds that the Bible is free from errors regarding faith and practice but not necessarily science or history; biblical literalism requires a literal interpretation of events and teachings in the Bible and generally discounts allegory and metaphor; and the âBible as literatureâ educational approach extols the literary qualities of the Bible but disregards its miraculous elements.
The Church does not strictly subscribe to any of these interpretive approaches. Rather, in the words of Joseph Smith, it regards the Bible to be the word of God, âas far as it is translated correctlyâ (8th Article of Faith). Accordingly, Church members believe that during the centuries-long process in which fallible human beings compiled, translated and transcribed the Bible, various errors entered the text. However, this does not override the overwhelming predominance of truth within the Bible. As Elder Ballard noted, âWithout the Bible, we would not know of His Church then, nor would we have the fullness of His gospel now.â Part of that fullness is the Bibleâs seminal instruction that God reveals Himself to those who seek Him. The Bible is a living invitation to know personally the sacred revelatory experience that fills its pages.
The scriptures, or âstandard works,â of the Latter-day Saints comprise the Old Testament and New Testament of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. According to Elder Ballard, these scriptures constitute a âgreat, indivisible wholeâ of Godâs revealed word that help humankind understand the past, present and future. The great gospel plan contained in these works does not apply to one generation or one people alone but to all of Godâs children throughout all time. Thus, in the words of Elder Ballard, âthose who think that one part is more important or more true than the other parts are missing some of the beauty and completeness of the canon of ancient scripture.â
During previous periods of time when God organized His church, He added new revelations to pre-existing scripture, forming a connection between believers of the present and believers of the past. For example, the Old Testament book of Isaiah gives shape and meaning to the Gospel of Matthew. The two revelations need not be viewed as rivals competing with each other: the existence of one does not negate the relevance or legitimacy of the other. This ongoing revelation of scripture gives uniformity and continuity to an unfolding gospel narrative and unites people under one standard of doctrine.
Of all the standard works, the Bible remains the best source for an intimate understanding of the character and personality of Jesus Christ during His mortal mission. While the Old Testament offers a prophetic foretelling of that mission, the New Testament provides an unmatched account of the events, experiences, teachings and personal interactions of Christ. The Book of Mormon strengthens and reinforces His teachings through additional witnesses and provides moving accounts of the personal experiences many individuals had with Him. According to Elder Ballard, âThe Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor de-emphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it.â
Here it is again:
"Of all the standard works, the Bible remains the best source for an intimate understanding of the character and personality of Jesus Christ during His mortal mission. While the Old Testament offers a prophetic foretelling of that mission, the New Testament provides an unmatched account of the events, experiences, teachings and personal interactions of Christ."
Found in this talk by Jeffrey R. Holland, ââMy Words ⦠Never Ceaseâ,â Liahona, May 2008, 91â94
"Please do not misunderstand. We love and revere the Bible, as Elder M. Russell Ballard taught so clearly from this pulpit just one year ago. The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our âstandard works.â "
Ah...the Bible is the 'word of God, and it is ALWAYS identified FIRST in our canon, our standard works.'
Thanks for that post, Jaye. I had never seen that article, but deep down, I just knew the Bible came first. Maybe now little Dubbsy will be quiet about this. KitKat, You are optimistic aren't you????? 
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Dubby (DUBBSS) is a Woman HATER, a CRYBABY, a WHINER, a JERK and a BIG TIME SMARMY LOSER!!!!!!!
An Original WENCH, a naughty witch and Very PROUD of it.
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Wren (User)
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Posts: 12999
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: 7
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Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
You have never pointed what supposedly "plain and precious parts" were removed.
Read the BofM, D&C, Pearl of Great price, and listen to the Prophets to find out.
"LOL" So what you are saying is you don't know "LOL"
Oh, I know, it's pretty simple, all the simple truths the LDS church teaches, I mentioned them.
They are not "truths", only beliefs.
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Wren (User)
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Posts: 12999
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: 7
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Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
As my dear friend Dubbs will tell you, I'm no scriptorium. Uncle Bud I like your list. And by the time I read all your scripture references I will be a scriptorium.
But as my real friend John has told me, religion and politics are a bad mix. I've experienced that all too well in this forum.
What is the true nature of God? Just who is He? If He exists, what in the world did He create? And why? The nature of man? What a messed up creation it seems to have turned out. Just look at our world today. Most of the problems seem to have a basis in a belief in God and the rest, the foibles of man.
So what do I know. I don't know. All I know is my family is as good as it gets. And to me, this list exists for my family. This is as good/bad as my testimony gets.
Oh yah, and the next important thing, to love one another. (I think I read that in the scriptures.)
You said that well. As long as you serve Christ, that is all that matters. I like Uncle Bud's list, took, but it is unimportant if he is not serving Christ personally, knowing Him personally.
The best to you, Thomask.
Opinion, conjecture.
It's scriptural, podjo. Read both Paul and James in their totality.
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KitKat (User)
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Posts: 16427
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: 53
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Blondie wrote:KitKat wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
Percy you still haven't answered the question. What kind of accomodations did Jesus live in?
He can't answer the question because he knows if he answers truthfully, you'll have won the argument. And, by God, he can't let THAT happen!
Really eh Betzy? Let's see, you are now an apostate mormon that now goes to a "Christian" church correct?
So does your pastor work for free? Live in a Shack out back?
Don't be a hypocrite, your pastor works for filthy lucre, and priestcrafts his work. But hey, he got a degree from a university to preach, he must be right
That makes no more sense than for me to write your GAs work for fithy lucre and priestcraft is their work.
Go grow up, Dubbs.
There's a difference between making your living at preaching, and working for the Lord in your latter years as an apostle of the Lord, you've already worked your whole life in another career.
Filthy lucre is getting paid to preach incorrect doctrine also. Which they do.
Oh, so now you're saying the Bible is incorrect doctrine?
You're such an arrogant little SOB.
No, not what I'm saying.
what I'm saying is there "interpretation" of the bible is incorrect.
Interesting. That isn't what you've told me in the past. You've told me, quite bluntly, that you believe some of the Bible to be "incorrect". And you slammed me because I didn't agree with that.
Yes, some of the Bible is incorrect, and if you read Joseph Smith's edited footnotes in the LDS version of the KJ bible, you would know this.
Course you admitted you don't own one, so how would you know this?
Never admitted any such thing. You assume quite a bit, don't you?
Personally, I put the Bible above the Book of Mormon.
Fact remains, whether you put the Bible above the BofM (why a LDS person would do that is illogical, but that's you) The bible has many mistakes, and needed correcting, and that was done, that's the point, I have said it has many mistakes, but those mistakes if you study the Prophets have been corrected is the point.
KitKat is correct in putting the Bible above the Book of Mormon.
This is why the Book of Mormon is known as a SECOND witness of Jesus Christ...not the ONLY testament of Jesus Christ...or the REPLACEMENT to the Holy Bible.
Actually you are wrong here also, (surprise surprise) Get in bed Jaye.
The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER witness of Jesus Christ and the Most correct book of scripture on earth.
I wouldn't say either are ahead of the other, but the Bible is the one that is in need of interpretation because of the many errors, omissions, removal of doctrine, and mistakes. This has been done by the Prophets, they have replaced the plain and precious parts that were removed.
That is the LDS view on it.
Not a "second" witness, and nobody said it's the "only" testement, and it's not a "replacement"
Your views are so far off at times Jaye it's comical to see.
Joseph Smith's mother educated her sons using the Holy Bible as a primer. It was a great part of his emotional and psychological upbringing, contained most of his spiritual education, and the Book of Mormon borrows heavily at times from verses from the Holy Bible.
Don't forget...the Nephites originated in the Holy land. The knowledge, laws, and teachings of the Old Testament was their basic ancestry, and the core of their heritage.
The Bible comes first. Not only does it contain a record and genealogy of the people of the covenant,the House of Israel, it contains record of God's will and His laws for these people.
The very will, and the very laws that Lehi and his family carried with them from the Holy land.
The Old Testament also contains numerous prophesies regarding the coming of a promised Messiah, who would free Israel from the bonds of slavery, and oppression.
The New Testament contains record, within the Four Gospels, of Christ's birth, ministry, death, and resurrection.
The Bible is the primary testament to Jesus Christ.
And the Book of Mormon, is the secondary testament to Jesus Christ.
Or...as it is stated on the first page of the Book of Mormon...'ANOTHER TESTAMENT OF JESUS CHRIST'.
It does not say, nor is it meant to be considered to be a replacement for the Bible, nor to draw attention from the Bible, nor to gainsay the Bible.
Once again...you have GROSSLY misinterpreted and misrepresented my words and my beliefs.
But that is only par for the course with you.
From my understanding and readings, they are equal, one is not above the other.
Although the Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of our religion. And, the Book of Mormon is "Another" testement, that does not interpret to "secondary" in anyone's mind but yours.
You need to stop trying to speak for everyone else. As far as I am concerned, the Book of Mormon is secondary to the Bible. If I were to be stranded on an island, and could only take one Scripture with me, it would be the Holy Bible. I know you'll disagree, that's ok. But this is how I feel.
Another thing, dubs. When I took Seminary, it was a three year program. The courses were 1) Old Testament, 2) New Testament and 3) Church History. Now, if we wanted to, we could take an extra credit class after school. I did. That class was the Book of Mormon. And that's one more reason I hold the Bible higher.
If you can show me the church believes the Bible is more important, I'd like to see it, never seen that, I've always been taught their equal.
Not the indication you've given in the past. Change your mind again...eh?
Here is what the Church has to say.
From http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/reverence-for-the-bible
Reverence for the Bible
SALT LAKE CITY 25 January 2008 During the past several years, scholars, religious leaders, journalists and the general public have steadily shown an increased interest in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Much of this attention has been focused on the question of whether it is a Christian faith. Central to this inquiry is the Churchâs relationship with the Bible. Many have wondered whether Latter-day Saints believe in the Bible at all. Still others have supposed that the Church uses the Bible only when convenient, while shrugging it off as an inessential part of scriptural canon. With so many conflicting voices participating in this discussion, it may seem difficult to know where the Church stands on this issue.
The truth is that the Church reveres the Bible as a sacred volume of scripture. Latter-day Saints cherish its teachings and engage in a lifelong study of its divine wisdom. Moreover, during worship and instruction services the Bible and its teachings are pondered and discussed. To increase biblical understanding, the Church provides extensive resources and tools: lesson manuals, cross-reference materials, Bible maps, a Bible dictionary, and articles in various magazines. Thus, the Bible is much more than simply a collection of antiquated writings and revelations that have only scant relevance to the modern world. On the contrary, it stands in the center of the Latter-day Saintsâ spiritual lives.
In a recent sermon, Church apostle Elder M. Russell Ballard characterized the Bible as the âbedrock of all Christianityâ and one of the âpillarsâ of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Furthermore, he described the Bible as a miracle: âIt is a miracle that the Bibleâs 4,000 years of sacred and secular history were recorded and preserved by the prophets, apostles, and inspired churchmen. ⦠It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned menâs hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.â It instills real, tangible power in the lives of Latter-day Saints and offers practical solutions and spiritual guidance that inspire them to overcome challenges and trials.
There is a broad range of approaches within the vast mosaic of biblical interpretation. For example, biblical inerrancy maintains that the Bible is without error and contradiction; biblical infallibility holds that the Bible is free from errors regarding faith and practice but not necessarily science or history; biblical literalism requires a literal interpretation of events and teachings in the Bible and generally discounts allegory and metaphor; and the âBible as literatureâ educational approach extols the literary qualities of the Bible but disregards its miraculous elements.
The Church does not strictly subscribe to any of these interpretive approaches. Rather, in the words of Joseph Smith, it regards the Bible to be the word of God, âas far as it is translated correctlyâ (8th Article of Faith). Accordingly, Church members believe that during the centuries-long process in which fallible human beings compiled, translated and transcribed the Bible, various errors entered the text. However, this does not override the overwhelming predominance of truth within the Bible. As Elder Ballard noted, âWithout the Bible, we would not know of His Church then, nor would we have the fullness of His gospel now.â Part of that fullness is the Bibleâs seminal instruction that God reveals Himself to those who seek Him. The Bible is a living invitation to know personally the sacred revelatory experience that fills its pages.
The scriptures, or âstandard works,â of the Latter-day Saints comprise the Old Testament and New Testament of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. According to Elder Ballard, these scriptures constitute a âgreat, indivisible wholeâ of Godâs revealed word that help humankind understand the past, present and future. The great gospel plan contained in these works does not apply to one generation or one people alone but to all of Godâs children throughout all time. Thus, in the words of Elder Ballard, âthose who think that one part is more important or more true than the other parts are missing some of the beauty and completeness of the canon of ancient scripture.â
During previous periods of time when God organized His church, He added new revelations to pre-existing scripture, forming a connection between believers of the present and believers of the past. For example, the Old Testament book of Isaiah gives shape and meaning to the Gospel of Matthew. The two revelations need not be viewed as rivals competing with each other: the existence of one does not negate the relevance or legitimacy of the other. This ongoing revelation of scripture gives uniformity and continuity to an unfolding gospel narrative and unites people under one standard of doctrine.
Of all the standard works, the Bible remains the best source for an intimate understanding of the character and personality of Jesus Christ during His mortal mission. While the Old Testament offers a prophetic foretelling of that mission, the New Testament provides an unmatched account of the events, experiences, teachings and personal interactions of Christ. The Book of Mormon strengthens and reinforces His teachings through additional witnesses and provides moving accounts of the personal experiences many individuals had with Him. According to Elder Ballard, âThe Book of Mormon does not dilute nor diminish nor de-emphasize the Bible. On the contrary, it expands, extends, and exalts it.â
Here it is again:
"Of all the standard works, the Bible remains the best source for an intimate understanding of the character and personality of Jesus Christ during His mortal mission. While the Old Testament offers a prophetic foretelling of that mission, the New Testament provides an unmatched account of the events, experiences, teachings and personal interactions of Christ."
Found in this talk by Jeffrey R. Holland, ââMy Words ⦠Never Ceaseâ,â Liahona, May 2008, 91â94
"Please do not misunderstand. We love and revere the Bible, as Elder M. Russell Ballard taught so clearly from this pulpit just one year ago. The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our âstandard works.â "
Ah...the Bible is the 'word of God, and it is ALWAYS identified FIRST in our canon, our standard works.'
Thanks for that post, Jaye. I had never seen that article, but deep down, I just knew the Bible came first. Maybe now little Dubbsy will be quiet about this.
KitKat,
You are optimistic aren't you????? I suppose you could say that! 
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A naughty and piquant wench...and a wicked witch
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Wren (User)
Platinum Boarder
Posts: 12999
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: 7
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Great post, Jaye, on the supremacy, the first among firsts, of the Bible. Great research!
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