Oh oh. Tom reinforced the left side of his crutch! I would still keep a stiff handhold on the shovel though Tom.

ThomasK wrote:
truthhurts wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
truthhurts wrote:

Fact: There is nothing in capitalism that will protect the environment, worker safety, or anything else that does not relate to the profit motive. Capitalism is a wonderful economic system provided it has some controls to protect it (and us) from the abuses it will, without fail, exhibit without said controls. Case in point: Said mortgage mess mentioned above.

You don't know what you are talking about scout.

Capitalism; an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
A wonderful definition. Please be so kind as to point out where it says that capitalism itself, this private ownership of the means of production, protects the environment (the reason we have to have an EPA), protects the safety of the workers (the reason we have to have an OSHA), protects stockholders (the reason we have to have a SEC), or protects consumers (the reason we have to have a FDA and a Consumer Products Safety Division) to name a few. Get back to me on that.

Indisputable fact: If capitalism itself did that, we would not need an EPA or OSHA or EEOC, SEC, or FDA, would we?

You really don't get it. Whatever way you create economic gain, whether it be in a capitalist system, or in a socialist system, or in a communist system; there are resources used. Any of those systems, or any others you can think up, use resources for economic gain. It is not the fault of the system. It is how those good and services are produced within those systems that need to be monitored and controlled in order to minimize harm to the environment. Now do you get it scout?
Hmmm. I feel as if I am talking to a log... a very dense log.

As I said above, "Capitalism is a wonderful economic system provided it has some controls to protect it (and us) from the abuses it will, without fail, exhibit without said controls."

I've never said that communism or socialism are any better, and perhaps they are worse, at protecting the environment, worker safety, etc. Capitalism is concerned with the profit motive, and you are correct that it uses resources to make that profit. One hundred (or less) years ago, workers worked longer hours for meager pay, and had no job safety. A steel mill used, and polluted, water and air in the production process and could have cared less about said pollution. Miners went into mines and mine owners could have cared less about their safety. Only so far as the fact that if they let things get too bad and the mine itself might be destroyed did they care.

Is this the fault of capitalism? No, but I never said it was. It is capitalism, for better or worse, and that is why we need all of the agencies listed above. The FDA, OSHA, MSHA, SEC, EEOC, EPA, etc all exist because business cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be trusted to do anything other than act in it's best interest, which may or may not be in society's best interest.

Going back to my 100 years ago example, you could pee in a bottle, throw in in some sugar to make it taste better, slap on a fancy label, and sell it as a cure for cancer or whatever else ails you, and make a profit doing so. Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware. That is capitalism in its purest. It is what it is.

Now keep digging, Thomas. Since your hole is getting really, really deep now, you qualify as a miner. I'll send MSHA over to make sure you are doing it safely. And say hi to your scouts for me, and for heavens sake, don't swear or lose your temper around them.

truthhurts wrote:
ThomasK wrote:
truthhurts wrote:

Fact: There is nothing in capitalism that will protect the environment, worker safety, or anything else that does not relate to the profit motive. Capitalism is a wonderful economic system provided it has some controls to protect it (and us) from the abuses it will, without fail, exhibit without said controls. Case in point: Said mortgage mess mentioned above.

You don't know what you are talking about scout.

Capitalism; an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

A wonderful definition. Please be so kind as to point out where it says that capitalism itself, this private ownership of the means of production, protects the environment (the reason we have to have an EPA), protects the safety of the workers (the reason we have to have an OSHA), protects stockholders (the reason we have to have a SEC), or protects consumers (the reason we have to have a FDA and a Consumer Products Safety Division) to name a few. Get back to me on that.

Indisputable fact: If capitalism itself did that, we would not need an EPA or OSHA or EEOC, SEC, or FDA, would we?

You really don't get it. Whatever way you create economic gain, whether it be in a capitalist system, or in a socialist system, or in a communist system; there are resources used. Any of those systems, or any others you can think up, use resources for economic gain. It is not the fault of the system. It is how those good and services are produced within those systems that need to be monitored and controlled in order to minimize harm to the environment. Now do you get it scout?

truthhurts wrote:
As I said above, "Capitalism is a wonderful economic system provided it has some controls to protect it (and us) from the abuses it will, without fail, exhibit without said controls."

Scout, you're losing it. That's just what I said.
"It is how those good and services are produced within those systems that need to be monitored and controlled in order to minimize harm to the environment."

truthhurts wrote:
I've never said that communism or socialism are any better

I never said you said it was. I'm pointing out that you can't blame "capitalism" per say. It is how goods and services are produced. You have serious problems understanding economics. Controls are needed on HOW THEY ARE PRODUCED. That is the same for ANY economic system. Get it?

truthhurts wrote:
One hundred (or less) years ago, workers worked longer hours for meager pay, and had no job safety. A steel mill used, and polluted, water and air in the production process and could have cared less about said pollution. Miners went into mines and mine owners could have cared less about their safety. Only so far as the fact that if they let things get too bad and the mine itself might be destroyed did they care.

That's a nice story scout.

truthhurts wrote:
[Is this the fault of capitalism? No,

Finally, give that boy a girl scout cookie.


truthhurts wrote:
It is capitalism, for better or worse, and that is why we need all of the agencies listed above.

Give me back that cookie.

No scout, it isn't because of capitalism. It's because of the way that those goods and services are produced that we need those agencies.


truthhurts wrote:
The FDA, OSHA, MSHA, SEC, EEOC, EPA, etc all exist because business cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be trusted to do anything other than act in it's best interest, which may or may not be in society's best interest.

I always say, trust but verify.

truthhurts wrote:
Going back to my 100 years ago example, you could pee in a bottle, throw in in some sugar to make it taste better, slap on a fancy label, and sell it as a cure for cancer or whatever else ails you, and make a profit doing so. Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware. That is capitalism in its purest. It is what it is.

Sounds like multi-level marketing to me.

utocoman wrote:
Oh oh. Tom reinforced the left side of his crutch! I would still keep a stiff handhold on the shovel though Tom.

Hi uto, I hope you are having a good day.

Later guys. I'm off for the day. Gotta celebrate what's left of the holiday.

Have a great day. I sincerely mean that.

BTW, Truth. Using your logic the opposite is true. Because of the "profit motive" in a capitalistic system, that is a constant force to reduce costs. Therefore the least amount of materials is used. The least amount of energy is consumed. And on and on. Thereby reducing waste of our natural resources and energy. In turn, this helps to minimize the effect on our environment.

Profit is GREEN in more ways than one.