Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker (1 viewing) (1) Guests
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TOPIC: Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker
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Dubbs (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Wren wrote:Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
But neither me, you, OR the Church can prove that God considers the Book of Mormon to be of higher import than the Bible...and that overrules individual belief.
And you can't prove that it thinks the bible is above any other.
But it says alot when they call one the "keystone" of our religion.
It says more when your apostles call the Bible the foundation of the latter day gospel. A keystone rests on the foundation. Capiche, Guiuseppe?
No, a Keystone rests in a doorway archway, a Cornerstone rests on the foundation dar dar. 
Nope, Gino, everything (cornerstone, keystone, your boots with you in them) rests on the foundation, the Bible. As Jaye has proven conclusively and without any refutation from you, you are out of step with the LDS leadership.
Get in step, podjo.
Wrong profesor dumby,
Keystone...
the wedge-shaped piece at the summit of an arch, regarded as holding the other pieces in place. Typically a doorway.
Being stubborn doesn't change the truth.
Your apostles are quoted as saying the [b]foundation of Mormonism rests on the Bible.
Your denial of that fact shows that you are out of step with your priesthood leadership. You are expressing it publicly. You are a LDS heretic.
I counsel you to get in step.
They also say the keystone is the Book of Mormon, which without a keystone something tumbles, without a foundation something also tumbles, so one is no more important than the other, equal.
At least you are trying to analyze, and that's a good thing, Dubbs/Raymond. However, you are wrong on this.
A foundation can stand without a keystone (look at any cement foundation sitting by itself). A keystone cannot exist without a foundation.
No, they are certainly unequal, with the foundation the superior.First off, they don't say foundation, so your point is moot, go back and look at Jaye's quote, it does not say foundation. Second off, Christ is the foundation. you are wrong, typical, but wrong.
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Dubbs (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: -512
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Wren wrote:Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Russel Ballard clearly indicated that the Bible is directly responsible for motivating young Joseph Smith to walk out to an isolated grove of trees one morning.
Yes, sure it did, but that doesn't say anywhere that any scripture is more important than another, I'm still waiting for this claim.
This indicates to me that the Bible is of utmost importance to the LDS Church.
Utmost as much as the BofM, equal, here's proof from the BofM itself...
The Bible and the Book of Mormon "shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace" (2 Nephi 3:12).
If something grows together, they become equal.
It contains the first witness to salvation through Jesus Christ. And the Book of Mormon is simply another witness to salvation through Jesus Christ.
Simply another witness, to some it's the only witness, and their converstion tool, you downplay it's importance, without it, the LDS faith wouldn't exist.
If both are equal...than the Church's belief that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS Church is false, and misleading.
It is the keystone because without it, we would be just another church, with it, we have proof of continued revelation, Prophets, etc etc etc, our church would fall without it.
Please notice that Dubbs left out the statement that the Bible is the foundation of Mormonism.
Is the word foundation used in that post? Then how did I leave it out?
Kitkat correctly said that Christ is the Foundation and Cornerstone,
The scriptures are all equal in importance.
Go back and read ALL of Jaye's long post, and you will find it. Your are out of step with your apostles, which is heresy, when you voice it publicly.
Hmmm. . . Dubbs, are you Peter Danzig in drag?
I did, the word foundation is not used, even if it was, something crumbles without a foundation, something also crumbles without a keystone, so one is no more important than another.
Peter Danzig was a representative of the church, he went public with his opposition to church doctrine. This is why he got in trouble, as the church has the right to decide if a representative can deride the church in the way he did, in the end, they didn't do anything to him for his views, HE LEFT the church, telling.
Turn me in Wrenny, course they'd laugh at you.
Your meds are slipping.
You can build without a keystone, but not without a foundation. You, as a real estate guy, know this. If you don't go ask.
You are out of step with the church's teaching that the LDS church has as its foundation the Bible, without which, nothing else can stand.
I don't know why you are arguing this. The BoM was a conservative NT type of document that fit well into the 2nd Great Awakening. Once it was published, JS seemed to ignore as he went after new doctrines, particularly creating ones that allowed him to chase after women not his wife.Opinion, conjecture, anti nonsense.
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Dubbs (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: -512
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Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Contradiction by Dubbs. He says "most of its [LDS] doctrine" comes form the D&C, which means its more important than the BoM. According to Dubbs, all scripture after all is not equal.
No, that would be cherry picking, what you do, we take all scripture, combine them, and get our doctrine, they are equal in importance because without one, we'd lose doctrine. Nice try, but no dice.
That's not what you said. You clearly said that most of the doctrine comes from the D&C, thus it is more than the BoM.
I'd say many of our doctrine come from the D&C, but it many also come from the Bible, Book of Mormon. I may have mispoke with "most". I know you like to pick out one word and nit pick in your silly postings, so let me say many.
Fact remains, without out any of the three the LDS church loses much of it's doctrine. They are of equal importance.
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Wren (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs: The last dispensation of course has most of it's doctrine pulled from the Modern day PRophets which is the D&C, but our doctrine is spread throughout the scriptures.
Not evenly, not equally. Your Bible is first in importance as the foundation of Mormonism (as your apostles say), then the D&C is second, then the BoM, and finally the Pearl of Great Price.
word play, they are all equal importance, without any of the three, we would lose doctrine.
Word play on your part. The truth on mine.
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Wren (User)
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Dubbs wrote:Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
But neither me, you, OR the Church can prove that God considers the Book of Mormon to be of higher import than the Bible...and that overrules individual belief.
And you can't prove that it thinks the bible is above any other.
But it says alot when they call one the "keystone" of our religion.
It says more when your apostles call the Bible the foundation of the latter day gospel. A keystone rests on the foundation. Capiche, Guiuseppe?
No, a Keystone rests in a doorway archway, a Cornerstone rests on the foundation dar dar.
Nope, Gino, everything (cornerstone, keystone, your boots with you in them) rests on the foundation, the Bible. As Jaye has proven conclusively and without any refutation from you, you are out of step with the LDS leadership.
Get in step, podjo.
Wrong profesor dumby,
Keystone...
the wedge-shaped piece at the summit of an arch, regarded as holding the other pieces in place. Typically a doorway.
Being stubborn doesn't change the truth.
Your apostles are quoted as saying the [b]foundation of Mormonism rests on the Bible.
Your denial of that fact shows that you are out of step with your priesthood leadership. You are expressing it publicly. You are a LDS heretic.
I counsel you to get in step.
They also say the keystone is the Book of Mormon, which without a keystone something tumbles, without a foundation something also tumbles, so one is no more important than the other, equal.
At least you are trying to analyze, and that's a good thing, Dubbs/Raymond. However, you are wrong on this.
A foundation can stand without a keystone (look at any cement foundation sitting by itself). A keystone cannot exist without a foundation.
No, they are certainly unequal, with the foundation the superior.
First off, they don't say foundation, so your point is moot, go back and look at Jaye's quote, it does not say foundation.
Second off, Christ is the foundation. you are wrong, typical, but wrong.They do say foundation, go read it. I happen to agree that Christ is the foundation, and that is Who you, Dubbs/Raymond, need in your life. I counsel you to get to know Him.
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Dubbs (User)
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Posts: 9448
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Re:LDS Church excommunicates calendar maker 5 Months, 2 Weeks ago
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Karma: -512
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Wren wrote:Dubbs wrote:
Uncle_Bud wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Betzz wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Jaye wrote:
[b]
But neither me, you, OR the Church can prove that God considers the Book of Mormon to be of higher import than the Bible...and that overrules individual belief.
And you can't prove that it thinks the bible is above any other.
But it says alot when they call one the "keystone" of our religion.
It says more when your apostles call the Bible the foundation of the latter day gospel. A keystone rests on the foundation. Capiche, Guiuseppe?
No, a Keystone rests in a doorway archway, a Cornerstone rests on the foundation dar dar.
A keystone can also mean "something on which associated things depend". We are talking philosophy here, not a building.
So the Book of Mormon is something we depend on for our doctrine, same diff, big whoop.
Not really, Dubbs.
Mormon doctrine is formulated most on the Bible and the D&C.
Joseph Smith Didn't Believe in the Book of Mormon
So Why Should Anyone Else?
Utah Missions Inc.
www.umi.org
Dennis A. Wright
In 1844 Joseph Smith declared that the Book of Mormon was "the most correct book of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 194, and History of the Church, 4:461). One would think that the Prophet would found his church upon the teachings of this "keystone" book. Let's see if he did.
Ask yourself the following twenty questions and try to "chapter-and-verse" them using the Book of Mormon.
Where does the Book of Mormon teach...
1. that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
2. that God has a body of flesh and bones?
3. that God is married in heaven?
4. that men can become Gods?
5. that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
6. that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
7. that the blood of Christ does not cleanse us from certain sins?
8. that a person can lose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives?
9. that there is more than one God?
10. that males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
11. that you can't drink coffee or tea?
12. that there are "three degrees of glory"?
13. that the Holy Ghost is a son of God just as Jesus is a son of God?
14. that polygamy was approved by God?
15. that if a man wishes to be saved he must have a woman by his side?
16. that faithful members of the Church must wear sacred undergarments that have the power to protect them?
17. that official church doctrine must be voted on by the general membership?
18. that the Black race (seed of Cain) survived the Flood because the devil needed a representation on earth?
19. that God is the offspring of another God who, in turn, is the offspring of still another God, etc.?
20. that the highest level within the celestial kingdom is the "Church of the Firstborn"?
Frustrated and confused? Joseph Smith apparently did not believe the teachings of the very book that he proclaimed in the Introduction to the Book of Mormon as "the most correct of any book on earth!" This presumable fact can be demonstrated by a careful examination of these 20 distinctive teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If you had difficulty locating these teachings, then read on, for, in fact, they cannot be found in the "most correct" book.
The Book of Mormon does not teach:
1. God was once a mortal man.
The Book of Mormon never says God was once mortal. In fact, it teaches that God was always God. Take for instance Moroni 8.18. It says that God is unchangeable from eternity to all eternity. Joseph Smith, however, taught, "We have managed and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and take away the veil that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Jospeh Smith, p 345)
2. God has a body of flesh.
The Book of Mormon never says God has a body of flesh and bones. On more than one occasion it clearly teaches that God is a God of spirit (see Alma 18.2-5, 24-28; Alma 22.9-11). This is taught in Doctrine and Covenants 130:28. See also Parley Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., p 23.
3. God is married.
The Book of Mormon never teaches that God is married. This was taught by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt (The Seer, pp 37, 158).
4. Men can become Gods.
The Book of Mormon never says that men can become Gods. This was publicly proclaimed by the Prophet Joseph Smith on April 7, 1844 at the general conference of the LDS Church in Nauvoo. Known as the "King Follett Discourse," it is recorded in the Journal of Discourses 8:1-11. See also The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp 342-362, and the teachings of Prophet Lorenzo Snow quoted by Milton R. Hunter in The Gospel Through the Ages, pp 105-106.
5. Temple participation in necessary.
The Book of Mormon never mentions that a men must participate in temple ordinances in order to become exalted. This is found in Doctrine and Covenants 131:1-4. See also Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p 779.
6. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.
The Book of Mormon never teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. This is found in Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p 15.
7. The cleansing power of Christ's blood is not always sufficient.
Never does the Book of Mormon hint that there are sins beyond the cleansing power of Christ's blood. However, 2nd LDS Prophet Brigham Young taught, "There is not a man or a woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man or woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants (Discourses of Brigham Young, p385). Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, "But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men have their own blood shed to atone for their sins" (Mormon Doctrine p92.).
8. Baptism for the dead.
The Book of Mormon never teaches that baptism for the dead is a necessary ordinance. In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches that if a person dies in his sins, the devil has sealed him his and this is the final state of the wicked (see Alma 34:34, 35). However, LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "If we willfully neglect the salvation of our dead, then also we shall stand rejected of the Lord, because we have neglected our dead; and just so sure their blood will be required at our hands... we cannot be saved without them" (Doctrines of Salvation 2: 145, 149)
9. The Plurality of Gods
The Book of Mormon never teaches there is a plurality of Gods. In fact, it strongly teaches there is only one true God (see Alma 11:26-29). This was proclaimed by the Prophet Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:474.
10. The Priesthood
The Book of Mormon never mentions either the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood. You will find this in Gospel Principles, p 73.
11. Can't drink coffee or tea
This is taken from Doctrine and Covenants 89. Still, this health law never mentions coffee or tea specifically, only "hot drinks." Mormon General Authority George Q. Cannon included soup in this prohibition when he said, "We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious" (Journal of Discourses 12:223).
12. Three degrees of glory
The terrestrial, telestial, and celestial kingdoms are never mentioned in the Book of Mormon. See Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine pp 777-778).
13. The Holy Ghost is a son of God.
Only Jesus and those who embrace Christ as their Savior are given that title in the Book of Mormon. Under the heading of "Holy Ghost," The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, states, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father."
14. Polygamy was approved by God.
Polygamy is never mentioned in a positive way in the Book of Mormon, it is always described as an abominable practice. However, LDS Prophet Joseph F. Smith taught that polygamy was essential to exaltation (Journal of Discourses, 20:28).
15. A man must have a woman to be saved.
The Book of Mormon never teaches that. However, Brigham Young taught, "No man can be perfect without the woman, so no woman can be perfect without a man to lead her. I tell you the truth as it is in the bosom of eternity. If he wishes to be saved, he cannot be saved without a woman by his side" (as quoted by Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p 245). See also Improvement Era, Vol 21, Dec 1917, pp 105-106, as well as Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p 272.
16. Protective Garments
The Book of Mormon never mentions "garments of the Holy Priesthood" yet Temple Mormons are told that as long as they do not defile them, the garment will "be a shield and a protection" to them against the power of the Destroyer. This is found in Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 2:295. See also Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p 357.
17. Doctrine to be voted on.
Never were the words of the Book of Mormon prophets sustained by the believers in the Book of Mormon in order to be considered official teaching. The LDS vote in order "to sustain" official teachings as well as church officials. However, see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp 149-150.
18. The Seed of Cain
This abominable concept is not to be found in the Book of Mormon. However, third LDS Prophet John Taylor said, "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a woman of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses, 22:304).
19. God having a father and a grandfather.
The Book of Mormon never mentions it. However, Joseph Smith claimed, "If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. p 373).
20. The Church of the Firstborn.
Such an expression is never used in the Book of Mormon. The Church of the Firstborn is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:94 and The History of the Church 1:283.
Therefore, if Joseph Smith did not really believe the Book of Mormon, then why should anyone else? Now that's a very good question! I know how I would answer it! How about you?
Dennis Wright LOLLLLLOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL 
Nonetheless, the comments by the critic above are true. JS moved far beyond "the most perfect book" and its doctrines, to the perversions of the D&C, taking Mormonism on a non-Christian doctrinal nightmare that it is still emerging from.Nevertheless, The latter days are the gospel in the fullness of times, there are things that are only taught in the latter days, that we have been called to do, so of course we have learned the plain and precious parts. We have learned things that other dispensations haven't.
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