KitKat wrote:

gopherus wrote:

Unfortunately some of the men in the military are murderers and rapists. They are a very, very small minority. Most are average folks trying to do a job and protecting the United States because they believe in what it stands for. I don't put the President in the same league as these folks. To argue that he is a murderer is to question the definition of the word and when a persons actions make them responsible for the death of another person. I think there are good arguments for both perspectives, but I think we can agree that he has been largely responsible (as a leader of a nation that entered into war) for the deaths of both those who deserved nothing better and those who were entirely innocent (and many in-between). I do think that it would be fare to label Bush a torturer even though he has not to my knowledge directly participated in any such actions. He is directly responsible for the policies of his administration that include attempts to exempt us from Geneva conventions, shipping suspects to nations that condone torture, and setting policy and tone that allowed torture in Guantanamo and Iraq.
Beware being to active in your defense, it suggests that you don't want to address the real issues at hand and can't support the view that he is not a murderer. You can do better. By the way did you ever find any support for suggesting Sheehan is anti-Semitic?


I have to agree, much as I wish I didn't. My brother served two months in VietNam before he was permanently (100%) disabled. In his short time there, he saw things that have scarred him for life. I'll relate one thing and you can belive me or not, makes no difference to me. One night, not long after he arrived, the guys in his barracks were in bed sleeping. My brother could not sleep due to the jungle noises, and such being that he was new. He was just laying there, when the door creaked open and a couple of men came in very quietly. They crept over to the one black soldier in the barracks and slit his throat. It took all my brother had to keep from screaming. I have no idea how this was reported to the soldier's family. But I know it happened because my brother said so and I know my brother. He came back a completely different person than when he left. To this day, he has not gotten over the things he saw. He can't watch any kind of war movie, not even John Wayne, without having flashbacks. War is nasty!


Every American Citizen alive during the 1960's to 1974 were and still remain a casuality of that war.

Medicine Man wrote:

KitKat wrote:

gopherus wrote:

Unfortunately some of the men in the military are murderers and rapists. They are a very, very small minority. Most are average folks trying to do a job and protecting the United States because they believe in what it stands for. I don't put the President in the same league as these folks. To argue that he is a murderer is to question the definition of the word and when a persons actions make them responsible for the death of another person. I think there are good arguments for both perspectives, but I think we can agree that he has been largely responsible (as a leader of a nation that entered into war) for the deaths of both those who deserved nothing better and those who were entirely innocent (and many in-between). I do think that it would be fare to label Bush a torturer even though he has not to my knowledge directly participated in any such actions. He is directly responsible for the policies of his administration that include attempts to exempt us from Geneva conventions, shipping suspects to nations that condone torture, and setting policy and tone that allowed torture in Guantanamo and Iraq.
Beware being to active in your defense, it suggests that you don't want to address the real issues at hand and can't support the view that he is not a murderer. You can do better. By the way did you ever find any support for suggesting Sheehan is anti-Semitic?


I have to agree, much as I wish I didn't. My brother served two months in VietNam before he was permanently (100%) disabled. In his short time there, he saw things that have scarred him for life. I'll relate one thing and you can belive me or not, makes no difference to me. One night, not long after he arrived, the guys in his barracks were in bed sleeping. My brother could not sleep due to the jungle noises, and such being that he was new. He was just laying there, when the door creaked open and a couple of men came in very quietly. They crept over to the one black soldier in the barracks and slit his throat. It took all my brother had to keep from screaming. I have no idea how this was reported to the soldier's family. But I know it happened because my brother said so and I know my brother. He came back a completely different person than when he left. To this day, he has not gotten over the things he saw. He can't watch any kind of war movie, not even John Wayne, without having flashbacks. War is nasty!


Every American Citizen alive during the 1960's to 1974 were and still remain a casuality of that
war.


Especially those who fought.

politics4me wrote:

gopherus wrote:

politics4me wrote:

"As for Senator Orrin Hatch and Robert Bennett from my perspective they are outstanding Utah Citizens advocates."

You have got to be kidding me. Hatch an outstanding Utah citizen? He doesn't even come to Utah anymore. He'd prefer to spend more of his time on a boat in Mass. with the Kennedy family. I still like Bennett, but he made a huge mistake backing the President's amnesty bill.

There are rules in politics. In this situation, Rocky Anderson is breaking one of the biggest rules. He may not like Pres. Bush, and he is welcome to say that at any time, but to invite someone protest the President. Like it or not, that is just something you don't do. If you have enough influnce, you get someone else to do your dirty work for you. This will not win him any brownie points in the eyes of the people, even in Salt Lake. People may not like Bush, but there's enough that do like him, that won't forget Rocky's treason.


I live in Utah but outside the Salt Lake Area. I already liked Rocky, but this does earn him brownie points with me. I respect him not only for being opposed to Bush's policies and being active in the protest, but also for not doing the Republican thing and having a henchman do his dirty work as you've suggested. Rocky has some honesty and self-respect, unlike so many republicans who would have smeared a visiting Democrat while pretending to show respect publicly. It says something very negative about you that you would prefer appearance and deceit to honesty.


But this is deceit. Rocky has invited someone to speak for him. This is all wrong. A Public Figure should never organize a rally against another Public Figure. This is just not the way things are done. It doesn't matter what side your on. If Rocky Anderson has wanted to put together a Forum on the Iraq war and invite Soldiers from the war, Some Generals, and Cindy Sheehan, so the public could hear both sides then that would have been okay. But for him to actively invite her to protest Pres. Bush is bad form for any politician. There are rules that you just don't break, and this is one of them. Rocky is a traitor, and will never win another political office in his lifetime. People want their politicians to be objective, not radical.


Sorry, but I can't disagree with you more. Rocky is being refreshingly honest. Now aren't we all sick of dishonest politicians? What a wonderful change!

Ordinarily, I would agree that it's important for the mayor to be a gracious host. But Bush's atrocities are so bad, it calls for more than the usual type of protest. Bush is notorious for only listening to his base and refusing compromise of any kind. All the more reason for others in leadership positions to break with tradition and "stick it to him" in a more forceful way. I'm grateful to Rocky for saying it in a way that it's more likely to be heard. He's doing the entire country a favor. Go Rocky!

By the way did you ever find any support for suggesting Sheehan is anti-Semitic?

my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC [Project for a New American Century] Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel.

Iraq wasn't going to attack America or nuke America. But Iraq was a threat " to Israel. That was the real threat and had been for 15 years. But for the U.S. government, this was the threat that couldn't speak its name. Europe doesn't care much about that threat. And the U.S. government didn't think they should lean too much on it, because going to war to protect Israel wouldn't be popular


Examining the rhetoric of Cindy Sheehan alone would make this anti-Jew/anti-Bush alliance understandable. She has screeched, "You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and youll end terrorism." She challenged President Bush to tell her "the truth": "You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East." She has also called the Iraq war "blatant genocide." Her "Neo-Con" conspiracy theories perfectly match those of the Nazis; they well understand "neo-con" means Jewish, or as Duke calls them, "Jewish Supremacists."

Cindy's own words in bold...and the Duke they are speaking of is none other than the KKK leader, David Duke.

bbboss wrote:

By the way did you ever find any support for suggesting Sheehan is anti-Semitic?

my first born was murdered. Am I angry? Yes, he was killed for lies and for a PNAC [Project for a New American Century] Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the Army to protect America, not Israel.

Iraq wasn't going to attack America or nuke America. But Iraq was a threat " to Israel. That was the real threat and had been for 15 years. But for the U.S. government, this was the threat that couldn't speak its name. Europe doesn't care much about that threat. And the U.S. government didn't think they should lean too much on it, because going to war to protect Israel wouldn't be popular


Examining the rhetoric of Cindy Sheehan alone would make this anti-Jew/anti-Bush alliance understandable. She has screeched, "You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and youll end terrorism." She challenged President Bush to tell her "the truth": "You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East." She has also called the Iraq war "blatant genocide." Her "Neo-Con" conspiracy theories perfectly match those of the Nazis; they well understand "neo-con" means Jewish, or as Duke calls them, "Jewish Supremacists."

Cindy's own words in bold...and the Duke they are speaking of is none other than the KKK leader, David Duke.


I think you have a very loose interpretation of the term anti-Semite. I often find myself disapproving of the actions of Israel and feel that if I were President I might have to consider giving Israel this ultimatum in a closed door meeting (unless I was Bush because I'd feel quite hypocritical): Consider the ramifications of your choices that insight further violence in your region or you may find the United States behaving as a neutral party rather than a close ally. I do not hate the Jewish people and have no reason to do so. I am not a Christian, so I can't act is they killed my savior. I don't believe Jewish stereotypes, or any others, a generally true or useful. I respect many prominent Jews. I just don't think that Israel always pursues a course of action that makes me want to sell them arms or provide support for skirmishes in settlements that I think should not exist. Israel has also had periods of governance where I feel that we would have been right to support them as a brother against aggression (they've shown they are able to handle this aggression quite successfully) from their neighbors. I would still support them if they were invaded by Syria etc.., but I do think we need to recognize that they are a nation, not 'the Jews' and treat them as we would any other nation.
I've seen nothing in the Sheehan statements you've given that indicate she thinks otherwise (but is more emotional). I'll not defend Duke: he is excrement. If you can firmly tie Sheehan to him I think you've got something.