Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Blondie wrote:
KitKat wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Wren wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Sunday, 4 May 2008
Vatican keeps parish records from Mormons
From Daily Herald news services


Vatican keeps parish records from Mormons

EDs: APNewsNow.

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- The Vatican has ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons who perform posthumous baptisms.

The order was issued by a clergy mainstay, the Vatican Congregation for Clergy. Officials said the step was taken to prevent members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from baptizing by proxy their Catholic ancestors.

The order was first reported by Catholic News Service. There was no immediate response from the Mormon church's world headquarters in Salt Lake City.

Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald said the Catholic diocese in Utah already has a policy to restrict baptismal records only to those entitled to see the records.

One Mormon genealogist, Russell Bangerter, told the Deseret News of Salt Lake City that the order cracks down on the free flow of information.

Bangerter said the Mormon church has an open-door policy at its own Family History Library.

------

Information from: Deseret News, http://www.deseretnews.com

**************************************************

Interesting. And the Catholic Church has the right to keep their parish records confidential.

However...IMPO of course...I believe that people do have the right to perform these ordinances for their own ancestors...if that is what they wish.

IPR belongs to the parish and the diocese.

They can refuse to give a certified copy to anyone, regardless of the reason, including descendents.

I don't see what it really matters, though.

It doesn't. Especially if the LDS descendants know who their Catholic ancestors were. The records wouldn't really matter anyway.

Yes any Mormon can bring down and condemn any of their ancestors they want into mormonism, even if there ancestors didn't believe in the mormon crap.... "Cool"

if there were a Satan he would love the Mormons

Condemn? Strong words there John. Or do you think that God is going to force the dead to accept the ordinances if they don't want to?

I know that you figure Mormonism to be crap, and I understand why.

But some of your friends on this forum do not. Please keep that in mind.

Yes Jaye I understand my friends made a choice to become Mormon,
that was and is their decision,
Now if I feel my friend have made a wrong choice I will let them know, and I have,
I still respect my friends and I know they have made their choice so out of respect I do not push them or bug them to make a choice that I feel is right....

but I'm ashammed that Mormons and now it seems that maybe some of my friends do not respect others, who did not choose to be moromon and make that decision for them...

So if you think my words were strong, good they were meant too be...!!!

no one forced my friends to be or not to be Mormon.... and mormons should not force others to become mormon with out their say so.
relitives should not make decisions for their ancestors,

it's like that Mormon Mother and father who took their 19 year old daughter to another state so she couldn't get married because they didn't like the guy.... hey maybe they thought since we make decisions for our ancestors in the Mormon Church we can make choices for everyone....
John, may I say something? What about those of us who are happy in the Church? You have admitted yourself that today's LDS church does do alot of good in the world. I do not believe many things other religions teach, but I give people the right to believe as they do and I won't bash their beliefs. It is all about respecting the beliefs of others. You don't have to accept what the LDS believe. But what does it hurt to respect others? Respect is a two-way street. To get it, you give it.

And that mother and father.. do you honestly think that only happened because they are LDS? More likely, it happened because they have mental issues or are just plain mean. I'd bet my last dollar that those things happen in other faiths too, because we are all human.

Very nicely said Kitkat and I totally agree.

John, Please reserve your "garments jokes" to somewhere off this forum. It just sounds so CRASS and with no respect to the other posters who are active in the Church. You have ALL the right not to believe as they have the right to believe. RESPECT is the KEY WORD. I find the jokes very offensive. JMO

Blondie,
I love ya sweetheart but I do have to ask "what the hell are you talking about"...???

What "garments jokes" ...???


Ahh, how about the pictures you posted? Ya think?

Dubbs you thought the picture was a joke..??

also butthead that was done and over with,
what like a week or two ago..

as usual you don't know what the hell you're talking about Dubbs...

Dubbs wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
JLD wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Just Reading wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Wren wrote:
Jaye wrote:
Sunday, 4 May 2008
Vatican keeps parish records from Mormons
From Daily Herald news services


Vatican keeps parish records from Mormons

EDs: APNewsNow.

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- The Vatican has ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons who perform posthumous baptisms.

The order was issued by a clergy mainstay, the Vatican Congregation for Clergy. Officials said the step was taken to prevent members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from baptizing by proxy their Catholic ancestors.

The order was first reported by Catholic News Service. There was no immediate response from the Mormon church's world headquarters in Salt Lake City.

Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald said the Catholic diocese in Utah already has a policy to restrict baptismal records only to those entitled to see the records.

One Mormon genealogist, Russell Bangerter, told the Deseret News of Salt Lake City that the order cracks down on the free flow of information.

Bangerter said the Mormon church has an open-door policy at its own Family History Library.

------

Information from: Deseret News, http://www.deseretnews.com

**************************************************

Interesting. And the Catholic Church has the right to keep their parish records confidential.

However...IMPO of course...I believe that people do have the right to perform these ordinances for their own ancestors...if that is what they wish.

IPR belongs to the parish and the diocese.

They can refuse to give a certified copy to anyone, regardless of the reason, including descendents.

I don't see what it really matters, though.

It doesn't. Especially if the LDS descendants know who their Catholic ancestors were. The records wouldn't really matter anyway.

Yes any Mormon can bring down and condemn any of their ancestors they want into mormonism, even if there ancestors didn't believe in the mormon crap.... "Cool"

if there were a Satan he would love the Mormons

Condemn? Strong words there John. Or do you think that God is going to force the dead to accept the ordinances if they don't want to?

I know that you figure Mormonism to be crap, and I understand why.

But some of your friends on this forum do not. Please keep that in mind.

Yes Jaye I understand my friends made a choice to become Mormon,
that was and is their decision,
Now if I feel my friend have made a wrong choice I will let them know, and I have,
I still respect my friends and I know they have made their choice so out of respect I do not push them or bug them to make a choice that I feel is right....

but I'm ashammed that Mormons and now it seems that maybe some of my friends do not respect others, who did not choose to be moromon and make that decision for them...

So if you think my words were strong, good they were meant too be...!!!

no one forced my friends to be or not to be Mormon.... and mormons should not force others to become mormon with out their say so.
relitives should not make decisions for their ancestors,

it's like that Mormon Mother and father who took their 19 year old daughter to another state so she couldn't get married because they didn't like the guy.... hey maybe they thought since we make decisions for our ancestors in the Mormon Church we can make choices for everyone....

The "Baptisms for the dead" don't make you Mormon.

Then why do the Mormons do them ??

Because Jesus sent His disciples forth to preach His gospel throughout the world, and to teach obedience to the principles of His gospel...which includes the ordinance of baptism.

And the Apostle Paul also mentioned baptism for the dead.

Ok then why doesn't the LDS Church let the Church that the ancestors believed in handle their members salvation and the LDS worry about their own....

What right does the LDS Church have to Interfere in others salvation if they choose not to do as the Mormons or the bible believes or says to do, where is the free agency..??

The Free Agency will apply in the next world. They are free to accept the work and the baptism...or to reject it if they choose.

The work is done by proxy for the dead by those still living...because it is believed that it cannot be accomplished except by those still in the flesh.

Ok I can understand that if that's their belief,

Remember I was only active 2 years as LDS,

I'm good at history and true facts, but I'm not good at man made or made up beliefs and paranormal and mythological ritual's...

It was five years last you mentioned it. It's clear you never have studied the gospel, to not know about baptism for the dead? Wow.

Dubbs why are you always so wrong about things??

No wonder you keep lists, You're too stupid to remember things...

Dubbs I said I have been inactive for about 5 years.. Your such a dumb...

Dubbs I did read the book of mormon,
It's good fiction.....
If Joseph Smith had not plagiarized it, I would think of him as a good fiction writer like Stephen King...

Pittakos wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in my family. We had some members of the family join an off shoot off the Mormon Church. The rest of the family got together and, agreed that they should withhold the genealogy work they had done from them. Because they didn't want any relatives being baptized into a false religion. It should be great to hear their reaction to this.
Sounds like you "mainstream" relatives need to be slapped upside the head.

Dumb comment, other than about your feelings. The family has the right to withhold information.

what goes around wrote:
Pittakos wrote:
Marylb wrote:
I have an idea...lets all claim the deceased. I mean they can't fight back. It isn't as if all churches couldn't start claiming everyone deceased for themselves. Now the deceased whose true history is being hijacked can drag this expedient and false footnote around to eternity. Nice. Clever ponzi scheme for any church to make it look like they are bigger than they are.

Can't wait for the other denominations catch up and do the same to expand this game of stealing dead people's history.
This shows how little you and much of the world understand the doctrine and what is really happening. The LDS church does not, repeat, does not claim these people who have died. They are not counted as part of the LDS church. It isn't about numbers or membership or anything like that. The belief is simply that the ordinance is provided for those who did not have the chance to have it in this life. Whether or not, they (the dead) accept this ordinance in their behalf is entirely up to them. They can reject it or accept it. Nobody is forcing them to be a "Mormon". So, nobody's history is being hijacked.



Well put Pitt. The church is simply giving the deceased a choice. Church members feel they are giving the dead something most precious, however it means nothing if the ordinance is not accepted. Most of my ancesters have been baptized in other religions and never had the chance to investigate the church but I feel they should at least be given a choice.

And other family members or institutions who may control access to such information should be given the same respect if they say no.

And to my friends here who stepped into the breach to defend me against Dubbs assertions -- thanks. I would do the same for you if necessary.

Just remember that Dubbs is the worst LDS member to ever grace the forum -- he knows his Articles of Faith and does his best to live opposite to their guidance.

Wren wrote:
Pittakos wrote:
Sir John the Apostate wrote:
It will be interesting to see how this plays out in my family. We had some members of the family join an off shoot off the Mormon Church. The rest of the family got together and, agreed that they should withhold the genealogy work they had done from them. Because they didn't want any relatives being baptized into a false religion. It should be great to hear their reaction to this.
Sounds like you "mainstream" relatives need to be slapped upside the head.

Dumb comment, other than about your feelings. The family has the right to withhold information.
Why is it dumb, Wren? You are right that they have the right to withhold information but they are being hypocritical because they are part of a religion that culls information from all over the world. Many non-LDS have asked "how would you feel if your dead relatives were re-baptized into such and such a church?" I would venture to guess that the vast majority of LDS wouldn't care because they believe in free-agency of the deceased. So, when Sir John's relatives are worried about their relatives being baptized into a splinter Mormon church, then yes, I believe they should be slapped upside the head because they are being selfish, hypocritical, insecure, and just plain ignorant of their own beliefs.