Jaye wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Wren wrote:
Dubbs wrote:
Marylb wrote:
The only thing that I find interesting is that there is no Mormon who would allow me to, say, baptize Joseph Smith as a Catholic would you? Absolutely unbelievable to not only do it but stick up for it as if you see no wrong in messing with the deceased and justifying it with some distant minor blood line diluted into inconsequential lineage making it ok. There is nothing right about this whatsoever.


Your problem is you don't respect the religious beliefs of others.

I would find no problem if the Satans church of the devil baptized any of my relatives, for I know they are of no affect on me or my family.

I know you don't respect any others' religious beliefs. You have bashed time and time again on the forum.

So get off it. Now.

no more disrespect than you give the LDS faith.

No get off it son.

I have always been respectful in telling the truth about it. I think it is a fine church. It simply is not the true church.

And neither is your beliefs, neither is yours.

Wren's beliefs are true for Wren...just as your beliefs are true for you.

Neither trumps the other. Neither applies to the other.

Wren has been respectful to the LDS Church in that he believes that it is a fine faith, which has overcome a doubtful past and matured into an organization which has accomplished much good throughout the world.

He simply does not believe that it is 'THE ONE TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH!!!!!(echo...echo...echo)

You...on the other hand...have constantly, and consistently mocked, derided and degraded his beliefs, my beliefs, and pretty much everyone else's beliefs who are not members of the LDS faith that participate on this forum...not to mention my wife...who does NOT participate on this forum.

You are the epitome of disrespect and discourtesy.

Dubbs, by his behavior here, obviously does not follow or believe his church's Articles of Faith.

Marylb wrote:
I think what is clear is we are not communicating so I'll try something different by way of communication. To a person who is Mormon doing this may seem perfectly fine but for the outside world it is not fine. The reason it is not fine is most people select their affiliation in life. A Catholic, Jew, Agnostic, Protestant or Muslim believes just as strongly as you do in their faith or lack of faith. It is a very important final record of who they are and who they were in life. There will never be a time when anyone will be pleased with any group rewriting their wishes. It just is. I do understand that if you are taught that it is ok you may not understand the horror of making my Catholic mom into a Mormon as it goes against who she was. So what you take lightly is extremely offensive to those who are not of the same faith. I respect that you follow your faith but dig in if anyone no matter the faith plays with my history and steals my true life when I am gone. You may not understand that but it may explain why so many get upset when there is even a hint that someone would dare to baptize someone who would never allow that in life. Hope that makes sense to you because in reality a nonchalant view of this is mind boggling. I can tell you that my mom and every relative with her and those who remain on this planet would come undone. She was quite a woman and she did not accidentally pick her religion anymore than Mormon's do. Hopefully you will understand how upsetting this is to non-Mormons.
Here as some ethical guidelines for both sides of this discussion.

The dead no longer have any say morally or legally how their name is used in terms of LDS baptism for the dead. The living take care of the living, the dead take care of the dead.

That individual or institution who controls the name and information of the dead may in good conscience refuse to release that information to other family members or institutions that wish to baptize for the dead. They are morally and legally within their right to do so.

Those who wish to submit names for baptism for the dead should always respect the wishes of living family members of the dead, or if they don't know those wishes, respect the wishes of the dead's religion.

Marylb wrote:
I think what is clear is we are not communicating so I'll try something different by way of communication. To a person who is Mormon doing this may seem perfectly fine but for the outside world it is not fine. The reason it is not fine is most people select their affiliation in life. A Catholic, Jew, Agnostic, Protestant or Muslim believes just as strongly as you do in their faith or lack of faith. It is a very important final record of who they are and who they were in life. There will never be a time when anyone will be pleased with any group rewriting their wishes. It just is. I do understand that if you are taught that it is ok you may not understand the horror of making my Catholic mom into a Mormon as it goes against who she was. So what you take lightly is extremely offensive to those who are not of the same faith. I respect that you follow your faith but dig in if anyone no matter the faith plays with my history and steals my true life when I am gone. You may not understand that but it may explain why so many get upset when there is even a hint that someone would dare to baptize someone who would never allow that in life. Hope that makes sense to you because in reality a nonchalant view of this is mind boggling. I can tell you that my mom and every relative with her and those who remain on this planet would come undone. She was quite a woman and she did not accidentally pick her religion anymore than Mormon's do. Hopefully you will understand how upsetting this is to non-Mormons.
And again, Marylb, you completely ignore what I have been saying to you. A Mormon baptism for someone who is dead does not make that dead person a Mormon for reasons already explained. If you were truly listening to what we have been saying, you wouldn't take offense. All you would see is an option that has been offered; an option which the individual can embrace or laugh at and walk away from.

Wren wrote:
Marylb wrote:
I think what is clear is we are not communicating so I'll try something different by way of communication. To a person who is Mormon doing this may seem perfectly fine but for the outside world it is not fine. The reason it is not fine is most people select their affiliation in life. A Catholic, Jew, Agnostic, Protestant or Muslim believes just as strongly as you do in their faith or lack of faith. It is a very important final record of who they are and who they were in life. There will never be a time when anyone will be pleased with any group rewriting their wishes. It just is. I do understand that if you are taught that it is ok you may not understand the horror of making my Catholic mom into a Mormon as it goes against who she was. So what you take lightly is extremely offensive to those who are not of the same faith. I respect that you follow your faith but dig in if anyone no matter the faith plays with my history and steals my true life when I am gone. You may not understand that but it may explain why so many get upset when there is even a hint that someone would dare to baptize someone who would never allow that in life. Hope that makes sense to you because in reality a nonchalant view of this is mind boggling. I can tell you that my mom and every relative with her and those who remain on this planet would come undone. She was quite a woman and she did not accidentally pick her religion anymore than Mormon's do. Hopefully you will understand how upsetting this is to non-Mormons.
Here as some ethical guidelines for both sides of this discussion.

The dead no longer have any say morally or legally how their name is used in terms of LDS baptism for the dead. The living take care of the living, the dead take care of the dead.

That individual or institution who controls the name and information of the dead may in good conscience refuse to release that information to other family members or institutions that wish to baptize for the dead. They are morally and legally within their right to do so.

Those who wish to submit names for baptism for the dead should always respect the wishes of living family members of the dead, or if they don't know those wishes, respect the wishes of the dead's religion.

THANK YOU! I was getting a different impression all together. At least I know now that some thought goes into respecting the wishes. I still have a hard time with the idea of someone remotely related and generationally removed making those decisions in light of the long forgotten choice the deceased made in life but at least I do understand it a little better. I think maybe this discussion explains why there is so much stress and misunderstanding over this one issue from both sides. I would hope that ANY long lost relative take their heritage seriously enough to respect distant relatives. In the case of my mom, I wouldn't want to be anyone who thought they could change her life. Ya don't mess with old school Catholic moms, dead or alive. Trust me on that! lol

Pittakos wrote:
Marylb wrote:
I think what is clear is we are not communicating so I'll try something different by way of communication. To a person who is Mormon doing this may seem perfectly fine but for the outside world it is not fine. The reason it is not fine is most people select their affiliation in life. A Catholic, Jew, Agnostic, Protestant or Muslim believes just as strongly as you do in their faith or lack of faith. It is a very important final record of who they are and who they were in life. There will never be a time when anyone will be pleased with any group rewriting their wishes. It just is. I do understand that if you are taught that it is ok you may not understand the horror of making my Catholic mom into a Mormon as it goes against who she was. So what you take lightly is extremely offensive to those who are not of the same faith. I respect that you follow your faith but dig in if anyone no matter the faith plays with my history and steals my true life when I am gone. You may not understand that but it may explain why so many get upset when there is even a hint that someone would dare to baptize someone who would never allow that in life. Hope that makes sense to you because in reality a nonchalant view of this is mind boggling. I can tell you that my mom and every relative with her and those who remain on this planet would come undone. She was quite a woman and she did not accidentally pick her religion anymore than Mormon's do. Hopefully you will understand how upsetting this is to non-Mormons.
And again, Marylb, you completely ignore what I have been saying to you. A Mormon baptism for someone who is dead does not make that dead person a Mormon for reasons already explained. If you were truly listening to what we have been saying, you wouldn't take offense. All you would see is an option that has been offered; an option which the individual can embrace or laugh at and walk away from.

I did listen to you but your explanation was unacceptable to me. I think I understand what you were trying to say now but initially it appeared you were more focused on justifying a right you don't have. See: Joseph Smith discussion early on. I don't think it is a good enough excuse to say the deceased can accept or reject. I'm sorry that is a bogus justification. What is important to me though is that it is on everyone to respect their distant relatives by not doing this without great thought, if ever. I may have misunderstood you but I think it was because you were so nonchalant as if you had no idea why an outsider would be dismayed over the concept. I can't say I like it now but we all learn from what we do and if you are doing wrong, it comes back in life in the form of a karma more often than not. It is on all of us to protect some semblance of respect before we destroy it completely. I can only hope everyone thinks before doing because losing your heritage by converting the reality is something lost.

Marylb wrote:
Pittakos wrote:
Marylb wrote:
I think what is clear is we are not communicating so I'll try something different by way of communication. To a person who is Mormon doing this may seem perfectly fine but for the outside world it is not fine. The reason it is not fine is most people select their affiliation in life. A Catholic, Jew, Agnostic, Protestant or Muslim believes just as strongly as you do in their faith or lack of faith. It is a very important final record of who they are and who they were in life. There will never be a time when anyone will be pleased with any group rewriting their wishes. It just is. I do understand that if you are taught that it is ok you may not understand the horror of making my Catholic mom into a Mormon as it goes against who she was. So what you take lightly is extremely offensive to those who are not of the same faith. I respect that you follow your faith but dig in if anyone no matter the faith plays with my history and steals my true life when I am gone. You may not understand that but it may explain why so many get upset when there is even a hint that someone would dare to baptize someone who would never allow that in life. Hope that makes sense to you because in reality a nonchalant view of this is mind boggling. I can tell you that my mom and every relative with her and those who remain on this planet would come undone. She was quite a woman and she did not accidentally pick her religion anymore than Mormon's do. Hopefully you will understand how upsetting this is to non-Mormons.
And again, Marylb, you completely ignore what I have been saying to you. A Mormon baptism for someone who is dead does not make that dead person a Mormon for reasons already explained. If you were truly listening to what we have been saying, you wouldn't take offense. All you would see is an option that has been offered; an option which the individual can embrace or laugh at and walk away from.

I did listen to you but your explanation was unacceptable to me. I think I understand what you were trying to say now but initially it appeared you were more focused on justifying a right you don't have. See: Joseph Smith discussion early on. I don't think it is a good enough excuse to say the deceased can accept or reject. I'm sorry that is a bogus justification. What is important to me though is that it is on everyone to respect their distant relatives by not doing this without great thought, if ever. I may have misunderstood you but I think it was because you were so nonchalant as if you had no idea why an outsider would be dismayed over the concept. I can't say I like it now but we all learn from what we do and if you are doing wrong, it comes back in life in the form of a karma more often than not. It is on all of us to protect some semblance of respect before we destroy it completely. I can only hope everyone thinks before doing because losing your heritage by converting the reality is something lost.

Your still not getting it, Your still making comments like "your making them mormon" and "your making them lose their heritage" and "your converting them"

Lady, read more, type less.