Sunday, 13 April 2008
County challengers question 'superdelegates' Print E-mail
DAILY HERALD   

Joe Pyrah

As the left's political donnybrook continues in the presidential ring, the right's own battle here at home is heating up before the county's April 26 GOP convention.

The weapon of choice for incumbents of either party, say critics, is the so-called superdelegate or automatic delegate. While traditional delegates are usually chosen by popular vote in a caucus, automatic delegates are typically people already in positions of power.

The argument goes that the powerful, though sometimes small, circle finds it in each other's best interests to help one another stay elected or in positions of authority and thus vote accordingly at party conventions.

Take, for example, the Hillary Clinton/Barack Obama race. Obama has a nearly insurmountable lead in regular delegates, but Clinton leads in superdelegates because of her long-cultivated ties to political insiders. If they chose to ignore the regular delegate trends, they could hand her the race.

"Sometimes the hurdles placed by parties in the path of rank-and-file citizens can be significant," said Kelly Patterson, director of BYU's Center for the Study of Elections and Democracy.


Deep impact?

The fear is the same in Utah County, say some Republican challengers.

Here they're tagged ex officio in party bylaws. (That's Latin for "by virtue or because of an office.") While some party members rankle at the terms "super" or "automatic" delegates, others even in favor of the system use the terms interchangeably. Those delegates make up 10 percent of the total in Utah County -- about 120 of 1,200 -- and are filled by elected officials and party hierarchs.

Lowell Nelson, who has been elected as a delegate for 14 years, has battled the idea of automatic delegates nearly every time a convention rolls around. Giving away delegate seats dilutes the power of grassroots, he says, "which is where I think it belongs." If elected officials want to be delegates, they can always get themselves elected in a caucus, he contends.

What kind of impact can 10 percent really have? First, the ground rules: If any candidate at the GOP convention gets more than 60 percent of the delegate vote, the primary is averted and the candidate goes straight to the general election. (It should be noted that since a Republican hasn't lost in Utah County in more than a decade, that 60 percent of delegates has meant an automatic seat in office.)

If indeed the ex-officio group votes in bloc, an incumbent would only need 50 percent of the other delegates to skip the primary. The ex-officios can also provide enough support to keep incumbents alive through the convention and get them into a primary where name recognition is to their benefit.

In some races, the number of automatic delegates are even higher because of concentrations of where they live. Sen. Curt Bramble's District 16 is made up of about 15 percent ex-officio delegates, a point sorely made by his opponent, Jacqueline DeGaston.

But getting them to vote together isn't as easy as it sounds

"It makes a good intellectual argument, but in practice I've never seen it," said Senate President John Valentine, R-Orem, who has no opponent this year in his party or otherwise and has been either an elected or ex-officio delegate since the 1970s.

"In my discussions with the ex officios, they do vary significantly."


Yeah, so?

Patterson says it's important to remember that a political party isn't the same thing as the political system in which it plays a part. The party's rules and bylaws don't have to follow what one might consider a democratic process. In fact, those rules are often in place to protect the ideals that the party espouses.

"If a party becomes too democratized, does it become, in a sense, watered down?" he said.

Proponents claim giving delegate votes to elected and party officials helps to keep them involved and is a reward for their work.

"How would you get someone like me to do this job if I weren't a delegate?" asked county chairwoman Marian Monnahan. "Obviously there are a lot of us that put in a lot of hours."

Valentine agrees, saying the ex officio allowance lets those running the convention to actually "be at the table, be in the room and making some of the decisions" when it comes to voting. He also disputes the idea of a power grab, saying elected and party officials had to be voted into their positions by the rank-and-file.

"It's not just something that's happening by birthright. It's with the understanding that they're going to be a delegate," he said.


Groundhog Day

Opponents disagree with that logic and make it an issue every few years. In Salt Lake County, a Republican party member recently failed in an attempt to use the courts to stop the county party from using automatic delegates.

"We are simply following the rules of the party as stated in the documents," said state party chairman Stan Lockhart. "These complaints are really just without merit."

Party members like Nelson agree that the issue is perennial and perhaps not likely to change anytime soon, but he insists from a "purist's perspective" that it's important enough to keep bringing back.

Even Valentine concedes that while it's an old issue, the fact that it keeps coming back means it remains a viable issue.

"There are pros and cons," he said, "and I'm the first to admit it."

Convention


Utah County Nominating Convention -- April 26 at Orem High School
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WatchDog Apr 14 2008 14:28:08
Newbie wrote:
YEAH SO?

...

Another point for comment:

Only 1/3 of delegates required to appear at conventions actually DO SO? Excuse me, I believe a roll call is in order. Delegates who do not show up, except by cause of death, death in the family, marriage, marriage of a family member, funeral, hospital stay or illness by doctor's orders- incapacitation, OUGHT to be sanctioned for some period of years AFTER the convention, NOT allowed to hold precinct office or party office, so that others may have the chance to go and participate in the nomnination and election process.

There is NOTHING wrong with delegates nominees thanking supporters for the nomination, but backing out, stating they cannot attend and do not wish to be a nominee, withdrawing their name at the precinct level.

Did my comments demonstrate I earned a state delegate position? Writing all of this was a lot of work! I earned it didn't I? (Squeaky wheel trying to earn some grease... never hurts to keep asking, does it?)

Newbie


I agree with you totally. EVERY TIME someone expresses to me that they will run for a delegate position, my VERY FIRST question to them is: Are you willing to make a firm commitment to attend the meetings that you should? Then, we start to talk issues, positions, etc. BUT, if they are not willing to attend their meetings, there is no point in discussing their positions on issues.

It is actually worse than I described in my previous post on this issue. A precinct chair has the right to appoint someone to take over if they are not going to do so, or if one of the delegates quit. This, in theory, would still represent the wishes of the precinct which elected the delegate.

However, routinely, this does not happen! What happens, is the party insiders, (the county or state party leaders) see the empty slot, and appoint another one of their own! This is a routine occurance.

Now, who do you suppose they will appoint? One of theirs, or someone to actually represent the precinct? Get this: In years past, some of these "party insider" appointed delegates have lived in the same house! Appointed to different precincts, but all "supposedly representing" different precincts!

I seem to remember a case in which six delegates, all "representing" different precincts, lived together - in the same house!

And then, some of these very same party insiders want to make a big deal out of running for congress and living a couple of miles out of the congressional district! Sheesh!

The really sad part of this whole circus is that if the delates, ALL 3500 of them, would show up, this whole thing would be a non issue.

But, they don't.

The last convention I attended as a PC, we had an attendance of about 1300, leaving the "party insiders" in firm control of the whole event.

I am still a Republican, in defiance of all this nonsense. Our "party insiders" are in the process of destroying the state Republican party, for it no longer represents the will of the people, instead, it is their party, not the people's party.

AND, without a firm commitment from each and every delegate to attend their meetings, it will very likely stay that way.
#361535
1_2_talk Apr 14 2008 20:00:40
Watchdog,
In addition to the question of will they attend their meetings, I always add, "and are you willing to stay to the bitter end?" Any time there is an attempt to change or clarify this issue it is always put at the end of the convention. Many delegates leave the convention right after the nominating votes and don't stay for the business portion of the convention. Thus providing an opportunity for a loss of quorum and an immediate closing of the convention.
I've been at conventions where there was a narrow quorum at the beginning of the business portion. The party insiders began signalling their friends to leave so that quorum would be broken and the convention would end. Underhanded? Yes. Against the rules? No. If every elected delegate would attend and stay to the bitter end, those types of shenanigans couldn't happen.
#361602
WatchDog Apr 15 2008 00:07:10
1_2_talk wrote:
Watchdog,
In addition to the question of will they attend their meetings, I always add, "and are you willing to stay to the bitter end?" Any time there is an attempt to change or clarify this issue it is always put at the end of the convention. Many delegates leave the convention right after the nominating votes and don't stay for the business portion of the convention. Thus providing an opportunity for a loss of quorum and an immediate closing of the convention.
I've been at conventions where there was a narrow quorum at the beginning of the business portion. The party insiders began signalling their friends to leave so that quorum would be broken and the convention would end. Underhanded? Yes. Against the rules? No. If every elected delegate would attend and stay to the bitter end, those types of shenanigans couldn't happen.


You are absolutely correct!

In fact, I don't remember a state convention is the past 6-8 years where this exact ploy was not used to prevent a vote by the delegates on some issue that might very likely go against the "political insiders"!

It was attempted a couple of years ago, when we offered the resolution to ask every political leader in the state to do what they could to figure out what the cost of illegal immigration was to the state. First, they put the resolutions as the very last item on the agenda, then, when we moved from the floor to move them forward ahead of the long winded speakers, they were surprised that we succeeded in that vote. As I recall, Sen. Hatch, one of the scheduled speakers, was really upset that he might have to stick around that long!

We passed that resolution, as meaningless as the effort was, for ONLY one legislator did a thing to respond to the resolution. Sen. Margaret Dayton actually did, as chair of an education committee, discover that illegal immigration costs to our school system could be as much as $85 million per year - as requested by the resolution. NO ONE else bothered to do a thing. All legislators, the Gov., the AG, the state auditor, all of them received a letter asking for them to take a look. NONE but Sen. Dayton honored the request. They ALL ignored it!

The reason that resolutions are always scheduled last is that is about the only way an average delegate has of getting something considered by or at the convention. So, by scheduling them last, after having nominations, after the voting, then after the long winders speakers; well, by the time they get to the delegate sponsored items, many have left the convention.

This is per the plan of the political insiders!

So then, invariably, the next thing that happens is that one of the political insiders gets up and calls for a quorum count. There is a bylaw that unless there is 75% in attendance, the convention must be closed - with no more business conducted. (I think it's 75%) We almost always close the convention via this method and never consider the submissions of the average delegate because enough people have left, which brings this bylaw into play.

This is a routine procedure pulled off by the political insiders - who have no interest in what the average delegate thinks...they just get in the way, as far as they are concerned.

Every time this has happened, I have left thinking: So much for the party expressing the will of the people!
#361673
nomark Apr 17 2008 19:50:38
Let's face reality.Most Utahns,(and Americans) are ,for the most part, too ignorant of the issues and unable to comprehend the issues well enough to make correct choices in the political arena.Therefore choice in delegates should be left to the elite few who have gained control of the party over the last 20 years.Automatic delegates are a very good thing and can help the elite few who are knowledgeable of the issues, manage the flock of lambs in a responsible manner.Let us forget this issue once and for all times,so we can allow those elect few govern us in the wise manner that they always have and move us forward towards the New World Order. JJA
#362288
nomark Apr 17 2008 19:51:18
Let's face reality.Most Utahns,(and Americans) are ,for the most part, too ignorant of the issues and unable to comprehend the issues well enough to make correct choices in the political arena.Therefore choice in delegates should be left to the elite few who have gained control of the party over the last 20 years.Automatic delegates are a very good thing and can help the elite few who are knowledgeable of the issues, manage the flock of lambs in a responsible manner.Let us forget this issue once and for all times,so we can allow those elect few govern us in the wise manner that they always have and move us forward towards the New World Order. JJA
#362289
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